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Online Safety Updates

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Thetageist
Member since: Aug. 11, 2018
Offline.
Member Level 31 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:49:18

At 1/29/25 10:39 AM, Myceli0m wrote:
At 1/29/25 10:38 AM, OnyxGalaria wrote:Glad you're taking steps to keep people safe.
The images in PMs thing is 100% reasonable; the shit people send sometimes. :(

Yeah, I agree. I dont even want to imagine if I were to recieve gore or anything gross in PMs.
Eugh.


Were you around in early 2024 when the site got an epidemic of hacked accounts? I had two of them send me the same shitty MS Paint porn of Tom getting rear-ended by a generic black guy. I think it was supposed to be shocking, but I just found it funny as hell, because it looked so stupid and Tom had a big ol’ doofy smile on his face.


They also uploaded live action shock stuff to the Art Portal. I don’t remember what it looked like, which is good.

Someone please help me revive my clubs

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AnthonyToons
Member since: Oct. 13, 2021
Offline.
Member Level 13 Animator

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:49:29

Yeah I know! Kids deserve better in terms of content, but it only seems like it's getting worse with AI slop

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Thetageist
Member since: Aug. 11, 2018
Offline.
Member Level 31 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:51:24

At 1/29/25 11:18 AM, MindChamber wrote:
At 1/29/25 10:00 AM, TomFulp wrote:Flash Forward kicks off on February 1st! If you’d like to help with the prize pool, please use the donation option on our Supporter page and PM me a heads up that you donate towards Flash Forward.

In the meantime, here are some things that have been going on this month, along with more plans for this year.

This month we raised the minimum sign-up age to 14 and we intend to gradually raise it this year until we settle on 16 as the minimum age. This keeps us more compliant with legislation in places like Australia and Florida but also feels like a good fit for Newgrounds. Australia may also be requiring ID checks, we’ll have to wait and see what they settle on and what they offer on that front later this year.

There's still time for newgrounds lite :3


…Wouldn’t that be Scratch?

Someone please help me revive my clubs

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Anamonator
Member since: Sep. 11, 2024
Offline.
Supporter Level 15 Animator

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:52:54 (edited 2025-01-29 22:53:25)

At 1/29/25 10:46 PM, name wrote:I started using Newgrounds at 10... Plz dont ban me


Bro how are you not dead yet you’re almost 70000 years old. That’s Amazing

Currently working on a cartoon this summer. Stay tuned I guess. Heh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This Website is my everything but I still go outside lol” - A Wise Man


If you don’t drink ocean water, you have nothing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bluesky - YouTube - Website (work in progress) - Art Thread

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darkmangopsychology
Member since: Dec. 2, 2021
Online!
Supporter Level 29 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:54:07

At 1/29/25 10:52 PM, Anamonator wrote:
At 1/29/25 10:46 PM, name wrote:I started using Newgrounds at 10... Plz dont ban me

Bro how are you not dead yet you’re almost 70000 years old. That’s Amazing


skillz

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HunterNG0
Member since: Nov. 19, 2020
Offline.
Member Level 10 Animator

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:56:10

Damn guess I have to wait 8 more years till I can use newgrounds again as an australian 6 year old sorry guys no more cartoons from me for a while

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Thetageist
Member since: Aug. 11, 2018
Offline.
Member Level 31 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 22:59:52

At 1/29/25 03:04 PM, TomFulp wrote:This would also be a good reason to crack down on low-effort / promo spam adult content, to be sure we stay under 1/3rd.


Aye aye, sir.


Should adult art and audio get a vetting/judgment process like games and movies?

Someone please help me revive my clubs

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OnyxGalaria
Member since: Dec. 12, 2020
Offline.
Supporter Level 28 Artist

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:03:52

Were you around in early 2024 when the site got an epidemic of hacked accounts? I had two of them send me the same shitty MS Paint porn of Tom getting rear-ended by a generic black guy. I think it was supposed to be shocking, but I just found it funny as hell, because it looked so stupid and Tom had a big ol’ doofy smile on his face.

They also uploaded live action shock stuff to the Art Portal. I don’t remember what it looked like, which is good.


i DO remember getting a DM from a fake fulp account around that time, but i was asleep so it got banned before i could see what it said. probably for the best-

thank god i didnt look at the art portal that day or forgot to check it that day, i would have needed to pay for therapy-

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Thetageist
Member since: Aug. 11, 2018
Offline.
Member Level 31 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:10:44

At 1/29/25 04:05 PM, Anamonator wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:58 PM, DioShiba wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:52 PM, Anamonator wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:32 PM, DioShiba wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:13 PM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/29/25 11:11 AM, detergent1 wrote:I guess that while minimum age to join will be 16, the E,T,M filters will remain available to non-users, right?

The filters will still be available to unregistered users, although at some point we might require registration and an age of 17 to toggle M. In the meantime, more stuff has been moving from M to A to try and avoid that, in particular because I don't like the idea of things like Salad Fingers and Madness being hidden by default.

This could be solved by a new method of filtering content, something which has been getting talked about some in the Supporter forum. It's a big overhaul though and would introduce its own headaches.

Couldn't the BBS be under the same restrictions that the NG Chat has if worst comes to worst and it remains an exclusive 18+ feature?

I get this might not be the ideal or anything like that but honestly, speaking from experience I'd rather not have to put up with teenagers who think they know a thing or two about the world when all they really know is whatever happens in their parents basement and whatever dumb drama they deal with in school.

I think the bbs shouldn’t be 18 + only because we already have a rating system on the BBs and a great moderation team so in my opinion that probably isn’t necessary. But it’s up to @TomFulp

In fairness, and I say this as a 30 year old man who has also been in the same shoes as a teenager in the past... Some things are really better left as adult spaces and lately my stance has shifted to feeling that have most online interactions should fall into that.

I know it sounds hypocritical but between the drama queens, bad actors, and all these other sorts of people who turn out to be problematic I'd rather not have to deal with the headaches that allowing teens in adult areas can cause in the same way a bartender wouldn't want to risk someone under 21 being in their place of business. It's a liability.

With Newgrounds being a collaborative space, what about collaboration projects? It would be harder for younger artists under 18 to collaborate with other people because the pm feature is already sketchy enough


Announcing collabs can already be done in news posts, and replies to the posts can be used to link to entries. That’s been done before without having to use the Collab Forum.


I’m also in agreement with Dio about “honing your skill”, though, because we’ve already had enough instances of poorly run collabs on this site, to the point where I almost think that art collabs should require moderator permission to be launched.


I know I’m going against my original statement that you should try hosting a collab, but I’m realizing that that wasn’t very good advice given that you’re still young and very much learning to cope with the stresses of the internet.

Someone please help me revive my clubs

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Thetageist
Member since: Aug. 11, 2018
Offline.
Member Level 31 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:12:22

At 1/29/25 04:11 PM, QueenBoo wrote:honestly, hell yeah, based update imo, you gotta do what you gotta do to keep people safer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think this is a fine way of handling the updated online safety laws. Do the best that you can.

Unfortunately I do wish there was more safer and fun places for minors to visit, kids & teens need places to be kids & teens too.


If you want to help out, I had the idea that I want to put a list together of the places that do still exist for that purpose. I can then email it out to parenting groups to spread awareness of safe places for their kids.

Someone please help me revive my clubs

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Anamonator
Member since: Sep. 11, 2024
Offline.
Supporter Level 15 Animator

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:12:59

At 1/29/25 11:10 PM, Thetageist wrote:
At 1/29/25 04:05 PM, Anamonator wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:58 PM, DioShiba wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:52 PM, Anamonator wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:32 PM, DioShiba wrote:
At 1/29/25 03:13 PM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/29/25 11:11 AM, detergent1 wrote:I guess that while minimum age to join will be 16, the E,T,M filters will remain available to non-users, right?

The filters will still be available to unregistered users, although at some point we might require registration and an age of 17 to toggle M. In the meantime, more stuff has been moving from M to A to try and avoid that, in particular because I don't like the idea of things like Salad Fingers and Madness being hidden by default.

This could be solved by a new method of filtering content, something which has been getting talked about some in the Supporter forum. It's a big overhaul though and would introduce its own headaches.

Couldn't the BBS be under the same restrictions that the NG Chat has if worst comes to worst and it remains an exclusive 18+ feature?

I get this might not be the ideal or anything like that but honestly, speaking from experience I'd rather not have to put up with teenagers who think they know a thing or two about the world when all they really know is whatever happens in their parents basement and whatever dumb drama they deal with in school.

I think the bbs shouldn’t be 18 + only because we already have a rating system on the BBs and a great moderation team so in my opinion that probably isn’t necessary. But it’s up to @TomFulp

In fairness, and I say this as a 30 year old man who has also been in the same shoes as a teenager in the past... Some things are really better left as adult spaces and lately my stance has shifted to feeling that have most online interactions should fall into that.

I know it sounds hypocritical but between the drama queens, bad actors, and all these other sorts of people who turn out to be problematic I'd rather not have to deal with the headaches that allowing teens in adult areas can cause in the same way a bartender wouldn't want to risk someone under 21 being in their place of business. It's a liability.

With Newgrounds being a collaborative space, what about collaboration projects? It would be harder for younger artists under 18 to collaborate with other people because the pm feature is already sketchy enough

Announcing collabs can already be done in news posts, and replies to the posts can be used to link to entries. That’s been done before without having to use the Collab Forum.

I’m also in agreement with Dio about “honing your skill”, though, because we’ve already had enough instances of poorly run collabs on this site, to the point where I almost think that art collabs should require moderator permission to be launched.

I know I’m going against my original statement that you should try hosting a collab, but I’m realizing that that wasn’t very good advice given that you’re still young and very much learning to cope with the stresses of the internet.


I’m already running a collab but I feel like I need someone else to help me run it. I’ve been thinking about it

Currently working on a cartoon this summer. Stay tuned I guess. Heh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This Website is my everything but I still go outside lol” - A Wise Man


If you don’t drink ocean water, you have nothing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bluesky - YouTube - Website (work in progress) - Art Thread

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Thetageist
Member since: Aug. 11, 2018
Offline.
Member Level 31 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:18:59

At 1/29/25 09:54 PM, LeviRamirez wrote:These all seem like really annoying backend problems to fix with the everchanging online political landscape that's going on right now, but these all seem like they'll be really beneficially to the health of the website and I hope the development of these things goes as smoothly as possible :-)

It's a shame things have to happen this way, Kids on the internet don't really have a place to go like they used to in the late 90's early 2000's. Newgrounds is literally a website that hosts Games and cartoons and even it is off-limits to them (Mostly, and for good reason) but you can't blame 10 year olds for wanting to flock to a site like this.

Newgrounds is not a great place for kids, but is it really any better then joining private discord servers or talking alone in twitter and Instagram DMs? It's a shame there isn't more websites akin to coolmathgames that truly are made for a younger demographic to enjoy without fear of intermingling with creeps.


Also want to mention this to you: I’m hoping to try to put together a list of safe websites for kids. If you know any (besides Coolmath, I got that included already) let me know.

Someone please help me revive my clubs

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Anamonator
Member since: Sep. 11, 2024
Offline.
Supporter Level 15 Animator

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:21:09

At 1/29/25 11:18 PM, Thetageist wrote:
At 1/29/25 09:54 PM, LeviRamirez wrote:These all seem like really annoying backend problems to fix with the everchanging online political landscape that's going on right now, but these all seem like they'll be really beneficially to the health of the website and I hope the development of these things goes as smoothly as possible :-)

It's a shame things have to happen this way, Kids on the internet don't really have a place to go like they used to in the late 90's early 2000's. Newgrounds is literally a website that hosts Games and cartoons and even it is off-limits to them (Mostly, and for good reason) but you can't blame 10 year olds for wanting to flock to a site like this.

Newgrounds is not a great place for kids, but is it really any better then joining private discord servers or talking alone in twitter and Instagram DMs? It's a shame there isn't more websites akin to coolmathgames that truly are made for a younger demographic to enjoy without fear of intermingling with creeps.

Also want to mention this to you: I’m hoping to try to put together a list of safe websites for kids. If you know any (besides Coolmath, I got that included already) let me know.


Ooooo….that’s gonna be hard because with today’s kids there is gonna be a lot of inappropriate brainrot games on some kid oriented websites.

Currently working on a cartoon this summer. Stay tuned I guess. Heh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This Website is my everything but I still go outside lol” - A Wise Man


If you don’t drink ocean water, you have nothing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bluesky - YouTube - Website (work in progress) - Art Thread

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Creeperforce24
Member since: Aug. 19, 2022
Offline.
Supporter Level 25 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:21:45

At 1/29/25 10:00 AM, TomFulp wrote:Flash Forward kicks off on February 1st! If you’d like to help with the prize pool, please use the donation option on our Supporter page and PM me a heads up that you donate towards Flash Forward.

In the meantime, here are some things that have been going on this month, along with more plans for this year.

This month we raised the minimum sign-up age to 14 and we intend to gradually raise it this year until we settle on 16 as the minimum age. This keeps us more compliant with legislation in places like Australia and Florida but also feels like a good fit for Newgrounds. Australia may also be requiring ID checks, we’ll have to wait and see what they settle on and what they offer on that front later this year.

Existing accounts will be grandfathered, meaning we won’t be deleting accounts that joined before the change. If you are an artist who was hoping to participate on NG but are too young, please keep honing your craft, we look forward to seeing you here some day!

We’ve also changed the PM system, so that sending images via PM is now a Supporter feature. Reasons for this are people abusing the system with shock photos, the potential for creepy stuff happening and to better comply with the UK Online Safety Act.

The next round of updates will make it so you can't PM a minor account unless they follow you, message you first, or are friends with you. This is also in line with UK regulatory guidance but also for the best overall. If you never noticed, there is already a flag button in each PM you receive, if you ever get something creepy.

If you live in the UK there is more excitement on the way. Starting in July, we will be required to verify your age in order to toggle the Adult filter. There is currently no way we can do this without charging you money and we’re not keen to do that via Paypal or Stripe. Ideally a better option will arrive in the months ahead, such as a UK digital ID that we can check for free.

Various states and countries are rushing into age verification laws that are a total mess and a burden for everyone involved; no one wants to show their ID to random websites. We personally hope progress is made with the Digital Age Assurance Act (DAAA), which would require device-level age verification. This means you would verify your age once on your phone and on your personal desktop PC / Mac profile, at which point it could pass a true or false value to apps and websites. This makes so much more sense than what is happening now and would allow sites like NG to verify age in a consistent, simple and costless way.

In other news…

Pixel Day winners will be announced next month, probably after the Best of January. Please take some time to enjoy, vote on and review the Pixel Day entries!

https://www.newgrounds.com/collection/pixel-day-2025

The NG Documentary Kickstarter is almost to $50k out of the $80k goal, please consider contributing to its success!

Expect some downtime today around 1pm EST as the site undergoes a number of structural changes.


As inconvenient as the image thing is, it’s completely reasonable. As long as I don’t have to become a supporter to post my projects, I’m happy <3

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wlimy
Member since: Jan. 28, 2025
Offline.
Member Level 03 Art Lover

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-29 23:26:36

The internet fell off

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Porter
Member since: Dec. 4, 2018
Offline.
Supporter Level 32 Artist

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 00:30:08 (edited 2025-01-30 00:30:46)

At 1/29/25 08:52 PM, ZombieGhost wrote:Good, I know some people will complain about the image in PM limited to Supporters.
But last year some random dude sended me his D pic. So I'm glad that won't happen no more.
I'm not joking btw.


Probably wanted to see if they could get a 5/5 star rating yk?


All seriousness that's pr traumatic and I am sorry you had to witness that...

Everything is only for a day, both that which remembers and that which is remembered.

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PigDen
Member since: Jun. 17, 2019
Offline.
Member Level 15 Blank Slate

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 00:59:07 (edited 2025-01-30 01:04:08)

At 1/29/25 10:45 AM, Czyszy wrote:I started using NG when I was 15.

Same here, lol!

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mtv129
Member since: Oct. 22, 2021
Offline.
Member Level 19 Programmer

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 01:31:19

This is a bad update, I don't agree with it, why can't I send photos!!! This is bad, now I have to send links to photos, this is not nice!! I am against such changes

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SkilledFanBoy
Member since: May. 23, 2023
Offline.
Member Level 20 Melancholy

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 01:48:09

Trash update. If I were you, I would reduce number 14 with one. 13y/olds have right to join NG, and about gore images, let them ignore and block these.

Where else am I? Sheezy.Art ꟾ Geometry Dash


AKA fe3l1ngsk1lled, Skilled, SkilledFeller, SkilledFanBoy... :3

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S3C
Member since: Mar. 25, 2008
Offline.
Supporter Level 06 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 02:12:38

At 1/30/25 01:48 AM, SkilledFella wrote:Trash update. If I were you, I would reduce number 14 with one. 13y/olds have right to join NG, and about gore images, let them ignore and block these.


I'd reduced it to, but more extreme, with -4

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AlfaFranek
Member since: Mar. 24, 2021
Offline.
Member Level 34 Blank Slate

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 02:24:36

I wish there will be no ID requirement. I don't know how that data is handled, but even the biggest sites have data breaches and we are here in small circle on newgrounds. Time will tell.

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ShockAsh
Member since: May. 7, 2021
Online!
Supporter Level 31 Melancholy

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 02:25:40

At 1/30/25 01:48 AM, SkilledFella wrote:Trash update. If I were you, I would reduce number 14 with one. 13y/olds have right to join NG, and about gore images, let them ignore and block these.

I feel ya, but this update is gonna have to stay. Otherwise, Newgrounds is gonna end up being sued for ludicrous amounts of money by some government filled with old out-of-touch people. I'd say those people are to blame for this.

ARM-SHOCK WILL NEVER DIE!!!

she/they 🏳️‍⚧️

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ShockAsh
Member since: May. 7, 2021
Online!
Supporter Level 31 Melancholy

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 02:31:49

At 1/29/25 09:54 PM, LeviRamirez wrote:These all seem like really annoying backend problems to fix with the everchanging online political landscape that's going on right now, but these all seem like they'll be really beneficially to the health of the website and I hope the development of these things goes as smoothly as possible :-)

It's a shame things have to happen this way, Kids on the internet don't really have a place to go like they used to in the late 90's early 2000's. Newgrounds is literally a website that hosts Games and cartoons and even it is off-limits to them (Mostly, and for good reason) but you can't blame 10 year olds for wanting to flock to a site like this.

Newgrounds is not a great place for kids, but is it really any better then joining private discord servers or talking alone in twitter and Instagram DMs? It's a shame there isn't more websites akin to coolmathgames that truly are made for a younger demographic to enjoy without fear of intermingling with creeps.

I yearn for a successor to Club Penguin for these newer generations.

ARM-SHOCK WILL NEVER DIE!!!

she/they 🏳️‍⚧️

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EuropeanRat
Member since: Mar. 16, 2024
Offline.
Member Level 08 Programmer

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 02:34:35

I think you screwed up some code for the mobile frontpage.

(can you see whats missing? super cool find the difference hehe)


iu_1344592_21443651.webpiu_1344593_21443651.webp

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ZombieGhost
Member since: Nov. 21, 2022
Offline.
Supporter Level 18 Writer

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 03:09:04 (edited 2025-01-30 03:10:24)

At 1/30/25 12:30 AM, Porter wrote:
At 1/29/25 08:52 PM, ZombieGhost wrote:Good, I know some people will complain about the image in PM limited to Supporters.
But last year some random dude sended me his D pic. So I'm glad that won't happen no more.
I'm not joking btw.

Probably wanted to see if they could get a 5/5 star rating yk?

All seriousness that's pr traumatic and I am sorry you had to witness that...


I'm not traumatized. Just sick of seeing idiots doing shit to people who aren't interested in that kind

of behavior. (Specially to strangers) It's not the first time a guy think I might be gay or try to force it.


I'm hetero sexual, and I knocked out one guy in the past in real life.

Nothing against gay community and etc. Simply put, I have zero respect

to people who try to abuse or rape. Period.


I value dignity and free will in real life.

And I never think twice to show consequences

for those who crossed that line with me, my friends or others.


I don't think writing this here will have any wrong message.

Whatsoever.

ZombieGhost

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S3C
Member since: Mar. 25, 2008
Offline.
Supporter Level 06 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 03:24:04

At 1/30/25 03:09 AM, ZombieGhost wrote:I'm hetero sexual, and I knocked out one guy in the past in real life.


what does that have to do with anything lol

are you saying homo sexuals can't KO guys in real life

there must be some gay MMA fighters or boxers...

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ZombieGhost
Member since: Nov. 21, 2022
Offline.
Supporter Level 18 Writer

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 03:25:06

At 1/30/25 03:24 AM, S3C wrote:
At 1/30/25 03:09 AM, ZombieGhost wrote:I'm hetero sexual, and I knocked out one guy in the past in real life.

what does that have to do with anything lol
are you saying homo sexuals can't KO guys in real life
there must be some gay MMA fighters or boxers...


Fuck you.

ZombieGhost

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S3C
Member since: Mar. 25, 2008
Offline.
Supporter Level 06 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 03:27:17

At 1/30/25 03:25 AM, ZombieGhost wrote:
At 1/30/25 03:24 AM, S3C wrote:
At 1/30/25 03:09 AM, ZombieGhost wrote:I'm hetero sexual, and I knocked out one guy in the past in real life.

what does that have to do with anything lol
are you saying homo sexuals can't KO guys in real life
there must be some gay MMA fighters or boxers...

Fuck you.


i'm just confused by your statement lol

or are you saying that you knocked a guy because he thought you were gay?

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Kieran
Member since: Aug. 23, 2008
Offline.
Member Level 51 Melancholy

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 03:31:11

Imagine if you have to show ID to sign up to any website?

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Czyszy
Member since: Nov. 21, 2011
Offline.
Supporter Level 54 Musician

Response to Online Safety Updates 2025-01-30 03:47:36

At 1/30/25 03:09 AM, ZombieGhost wrote:
At 1/30/25 12:30 AM, Porter wrote:
At 1/29/25 08:52 PM, ZombieGhost wrote:Good, I know some people will complain about the image in PM limited to Supporters.
But last year some random dude sended me his D pic. So I'm glad that won't happen no more.
I'm not joking btw.

Probably wanted to see if they could get a 5/5 star rating yk?

All seriousness that's pr traumatic and I am sorry you had to witness that...

I'm not traumatized. Just sick of seeing idiots doing shit to people who aren't interested in that kind
of behavior. (Specially to strangers) It's not the first time a guy think I might be gay or try to force it.

I'm hetero sexual, and I knocked out one guy in the past in real life.
Nothing against gay community and etc. Simply put, I have zero respect
to people who try to abuse or rape. Period.

I value dignity and free will in real life.
And I never think twice to show consequences
for those who crossed that line with me, my friends or others.

I don't think writing this here will have any wrong message.
Whatsoever.


@ZombieGhost I more/less agree with you. One of the reasons I don't do art commissions for strangers is the fact that you can always encounter this kind of creeps.

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