At 6/9/11 12:14 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: And Im sure by " they have very good arguments to support their point " you really mean your own opinion. Anyway, playing a god damn steel string guitar does not make you folk. If people actually listened to real folk you would know this.

No, I mean they are obviously creative, unique, skilled, talented, inspired. Have I mentionned creative? No, these words are not subjective. Agalloch are far more creative then other bands. Why? Because they can mix elements from Black Metal, Post-Rock, Neofolk, Doom Metal, Gothic Rock and Folk Metal. Plus, they take influences from countless artists, and write very unique and inspired lyrics.

So yeah, when some generic band, write generic music, with generic song progressions, generic lyrics and generic time signatures, I can easily say that Agalloch are a better band than Amon Amarth. But hey, you don't have to have good tastes, you know. Some people actually do enjoy generic music without deeper research for a unique and new sound. That's totally fine with me... but I don't think that the qualities I have listed are "subjective".

And I fail to understand the last part of your post. Are you saying that the folk metal bands I have listed are not really folk?

If These Trees Could Talk - Above The Earth

Have you ever listened to folk? REAL folk music? Agalloch is about 1% folk.

At 6/9/11 02:40 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Have you ever listened to folk? REAL folk music? Agalloch is about 1% folk.

I've always figured folk metal was more a thematic designation than anything significant in the music. It certainly has a more unique sound to it that compared to the rest of metal could be defined as 'folk'.

I mean, I love folk music and i'm not going to claim that Equilibrium sounds anything like Simon and Garfunkel or Tracy Chapman but I think that in the scope of metal bands like Agalloch and Equilibrium could be designated as folk.

At 6/9/11 03:08 PM, Gobblemeister wrote:

At 6/9/11 02:40 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Have you ever listened to folk? REAL folk music? Agalloch is about 1% folk.

I've always figured folk metal was more a thematic designation than anything significant in the music. It certainly has a more unique sound to it that compared to the rest of metal could be defined as 'folk'.

I mean, I love folk music and i'm not going to claim that Equilibrium sounds anything like Simon and Garfunkel or Tracy Chapman but I think that in the scope of metal bands like Agalloch and Equilibrium could be designated as folk.

Equilibrium is kind of folkish. At least the really cheesy cliche kind of folk. But Agalloch is not folk. They're a mediocre band that gets over hyped and turned into something they're not. There are bands that do the same shit and still don't get half the recognition.

At 6/9/11 02:40 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Have you ever listened to folk? REAL folk music? Agalloch is about 1% folk.

Yeah... and that's why I said Folk METAL and NEOfolk.

Can we agree that these are different genres?

At 6/9/11 03:08 PM, Gobblemeister wrote: I've always figured folk metal was more a thematic designation than anything significant in the music. It certainly has a more unique sound to it that compared to the rest of metal could be defined as 'folk'.

There are significant elements in the music that defines the folk metal music genre. I suggest you listen to Troldskog Faren Vild by Ulver. This is one of the most obvious metal influenced by folk music track I have ever heard.

I was actually stating that folk metal isn't just about lyrical themes and the occasional use of celtic and norse melodies. This is why bands like Amon Amarth are not folk metal. Except if you can proove me wrong...

I mean, I love folk music and i'm not going to claim that Equilibrium sounds anything like Simon and Garfunkel or Tracy Chapman but I think that in the scope of metal bands like Agalloch and Equilibrium could be designated as folk.

Not just folk, but folk metal. And Agalloch more than Equilibrium.

At 6/9/11 03:13 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Equilibrium is kind of folkish. At least the really cheesy cliche kind of folk. But Agalloch is not folk. They're a mediocre band that gets over hyped and turned into something they're not. There are bands that do the same shit and still don't get half the recognition.

This is objectively false. Agalloch are one of the most creative bands I have ever heard. They mix a lot of genres perfectly. Mediocre? lol! I can't even believe what I'm reading right now. They have very talented musicians.... some of the best songwritters I have ever heard.

And you should back that shit up when you say silly stuff like "There are bands that do the same shit and still don't get half the recognition." Start naming some bands and then we'll see.

Agalloch are the kind of band that you can hardly put under one genre classifications because of their ability to really mix different musical genres. Can you say that they are a Black Metal band? No, cause even on Marrow Of The Spirit, which is their most heavily influenced by black metal album, you can find at least a dozen of Post-Rock riffs. Are they a Folk Metal band? Well, listenning to Pale Folklore I would say they are, but even that album shows their skills at mixing folk metal, black metal and post-rock. Then, they release a full neofolk album... and even in their black metal tracks, they can drop down into a neofolk section. The best part about that, is that they always make the transitions perfectly. Nothing about their work feels weird, because they mix the genres perfectly.

I seriously have no clue of what you are talking about when you say that a lot of other bands do the same as they do... I seriously have no clue. Yes, nowadays there are a lot of bands who try to make "Agalloch Metal", bands like Gallowbraid... But it really doesn't count since Agalloch started it. You can't be generic playing a musical genre you have basically created...

Only older band I've heard mixing Metal and Post-Rock is Sculptured... and guess what... Don Anderson is in that band...

I trust you guys have been having fun with that guitar thing on Google today?

At 6/9/11 04:04 PM, Centurion-Ryan wrote: I trust you guys have been having fun with that guitar thing on Google today?

I tried playing with it a little :)

At 6/9/11 03:36 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/9/11 02:40 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Have you ever listened to folk? REAL folk music? Agalloch is about 1% folk.

Yeah... and that's why I said Folk METAL and NEOfolk.

Can we agree that these are different genres?

And thats why I'm saying FOLK METAL is absolute bullshit. One of the closest things to " folk metal " is Fejd

At 6/9/11 03:08 PM, Gobblemeister wrote: I've always figured folk metal was more a thematic designation than anything significant in the music. It certainly has a more unique sound to it that compared to the rest of metal could be defined as 'folk'.

There are significant elements in the music that defines the folk metal music genre. I suggest you listen to Troldskog Faren Vild by Ulver. This is one of the most obvious metal influenced by folk music track I have ever heard.

HAHAHA no. No folk music influence.

I was actually stating that folk metal isn't just about lyrical themes and the occasional use of celtic and norse melodies. This is why bands like Amon Amarth are not folk metal. Except if you can proove me wrong...

Nobody ever said they were.

I mean, I love folk music and i'm not going to claim that Equilibrium sounds anything like Simon and Garfunkel or Tracy Chapman but I think that in the scope of metal bands like Agalloch and Equilibrium could be designated as folk.

Not just folk, but folk metal. And Agalloch more than Equilibrium.

Not agalloch at all. Fuck, fintroll has more folk elements than agalloch.

At 6/9/11 03:13 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Equilibrium is kind of folkish. At least the really cheesy cliche kind of folk. But Agalloch is not folk. They're a mediocre band that gets over hyped and turned into something they're not. There are bands that do the same shit and still don't get half the recognition.

This is objectively false. Agalloch are one of the most creative bands I have ever heard. They mix a lot of genres perfectly. Mediocre? lol! I can't even believe what I'm reading right now. They have very talented musicians.... some of the best songwritters I have ever heard.

Hmmmm I have a different opinion so I must be objectively wrong. Face it, it's your god damn opinion. Agalloch is some of the most uncreative shit I've heard. They're bearable though...

And you should back that shit up when you say silly stuff like "There are bands that do the same shit and still don't get half the recognition." Start naming some bands and then we'll see.

Nachtreich. MUCH better and actually has folk and classical influences. No vocals either. If anything THIS is the perfect combo of metal and folk/classical.

Also, Wehmut.

If you had actually ever ANY amount of folk or classical music you would know that agalloch hardly has any in it. Playing steel string =/= folk or classical. And don't give me that neofolk or folk metal bullshit. There is no folk in agalloch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL8gT8wBo r8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuMAPwrFk Sg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ezwyg9W1 T0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6OqDZft4 2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlUhLRaV 5o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3bhuNUhM uI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qatvLZqU Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETpNoIo_B f0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ueqNLNfp TQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CriOF8z-w TM&feature=related
And where the fuck would I be without the moon and the nightspirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90mfXjD_1 Gs

At 6/9/11 04:23 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: And thats why I'm saying FOLK METAL is absolute bullshit. One of the closest things to " folk metal " is Fejd

So now you're just arguing over the legitimity of the genre to be called "folk" metal. Maybe you don't like the name, that's still not making the whole genre terrible.

Then how would you call it? Because they do take influences from different genres of folk music from all around the world, but they play their music with metal instruments. See... it's not called Metal influenced folk music. It's folk metal, meaning that the genre is metal, but with folk music elements.

HAHAHA no. No folk music influence.

I like how your argument is "HAHAHA no."

Nobody ever said they were.

"Nobody ever said they were"... Are you fucking serious? A lot of people constantly refer to them as Viking Metal or whatever. Maybe you meant "nobody said that during the discussion we are having" ?

Not agalloch at all. Fuck, fintroll has more folk elements than agalloch.

I can't fucking believe this. Have you ever listenned to the albums Ashes Against The Grain and/or Pale Folklore ?

Hmmmm I have a different opinion so I must be objectively wrong. Face it, it's your god damn opinion. Agalloch is some of the most uncreative shit I've heard. They're bearable though...

No, you are objectively wrong. Creativity is not based on individuals opinions, it's based on objective observation of the capability of an artist to display creativity. Shitty deathcore bands who just sweep through the pentatonic scale over chug-chug riffs are not creative bands. They might be skilled and very good to play technical stuff, but they do not display any kind of uniqueness and creativity.

Saying that criteria like creativity and uniqueness are subjective is wrong. So stuff wielding your silly "everything is in the eye of the beholder" argument. Only people who don't want to stop and think use that kind of argument. If a band has created something new, they are OBJECTIVELY creative.

Hate them all you want. You can say "I think they are boring." Then that's just a fucking opinion. Maybe you don't like their kind of music, but saying they are uncreative is wrong.

Nachtreich. MUCH better and actually has folk and classical influences. No vocals either. If anything THIS is the perfect combo of metal and folk/classical.

So... you said "There are other bands who do the exact same thing and who don't get half the recognition that Agalloch gets", but now you are claiming they are completely different... You previously stated Agalloch had no Folk or Classical influences. That just doesn't make any sense. You are just stating a preference right now, and you are not actually prooving that Agalloch are uncreative.

If you had actually ever ANY amount of folk or classical music you would know that agalloch hardly has any in it. Playing steel string =/= folk or classical. And don't give me that neofolk or folk metal bullshit. There is no folk in agalloch.

I never said anything about Agalloch being influenced by classical music.

Agalloch are heavily influenced by Neofolk. Maybe it's not your SOOOO awesome folk music, but it's still neofolk. And strangly, bands like Musk Ox, who play classical guitars, flutes and countless other instruments talk about Agalloch as being one of their biggest influences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL8gT8wBo r8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuMAPwrFk Sg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ezwyg9W1 T0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6OqDZft4 2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlUhLRaV 5o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3bhuNUhM uI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qatvLZqU Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETpNoIo_B f0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ueqNLNfp TQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CriOF8z-w TM&feature=related
And where the fuck would I be without the moon and the nightspirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90mfXjD_1 Gs

So... yeah... cool music... what the fuck are you prooving right now? The third link shows a gui playing the harp. This is the kind of stuff you could hear in Agalloch's music...

I don't know what's going on in your head right now. You seem to be holding a grudge against Agalloch for being fake-folk or whatever. But nobody ever claimed they were folk artists. They are basically a band mixing different musical genres, while keeping the Metal and Post-Rock genres as the base of their sound. If you don't like it, nothing forces you to listen to their stuff. But claiming they are generic, uncreative and not unique, is wrong.

Aghora - Transfiguration

Fejd are pretty epic, props on knowing them sportlord.

At 6/8/11 11:18 PM, greensucksbluerules wrote: I know, how dare he compare Amon Amarth to Green Day? Amon Amarth doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Green Day.

I agree, to an extent. At least Green Day songs have variety, and at least they were good once(insomnia is a great album)

At 6/9/11 12:29 AM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/8/11 07:55 PM, AniMetal wrote: Most real folk metal sucks too dude. Primordial is one of the few that REALLY stands out.

Agalloch

I REALLY don't consider them folk metal. At all. I don't even know what i'd consider them.

Borknagar,

Don't know them.

Empyrium

Same boat as Agalloch. haha

Enslaved

I always considered them more black metal then anything, but I see where you get folk from.

Equilibrium,

I just consider them melodic death metal that has it's epic moments. hahaha

Finsterforst

Good band, but like I said: Most folk metal bands suck, not ALL.

Mägo de Oz

While they are VERY fun to listen to, there's nothing particularly special about them.

At 6/9/11 05:05 PM, AniMetal wrote: Fejd are pretty epic, props on knowing them sportlord.

Any band that plays a Bouzouki is awesome. Which is why I awnt to buy one.

Equilibrium,

I just consider them melodic death metal that has it's epic moments. hahaha

Exactly what I'm saying.

At 6/9/11 04:53 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/9/11 04:23 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: And thats why I'm saying FOLK METAL is absolute bullshit. One of the closest things to " folk metal " is Fejd

So now you're just arguing over the legitimity of the genre to be called "folk" metal. Maybe you don't like the name, that's still not making the whole genre terrible.

Then how would you call it? Because they do take influences from different genres of folk music from all around the world, but they play their music with metal instruments. See... it's not called Metal influenced folk music. It's folk metal, meaning that the genre is metal, but with folk music elements.

From all around the world? I'm laughing hard now. If you consider some generic acoustic interlude to be music from around the world you are sadly mistaken. As I've posted already, countless folk bands. With different folk styles. Agalloch does not mix folk from around the world.

HAHAHA no. No folk music influence.

I like how your argument is "HAHAHA no."

I like how you interpret your opinion as fact.

Nobody ever said they were.

"Nobody ever said they were"... Are you fucking serious? A lot of people constantly refer to them as Viking Metal or whatever. Maybe you meant "nobody said that during the discussion we are having" ?

Yes, or at least I didn't. I'm not even talking about AA at all.

Not agalloch at all. Fuck, fintroll has more folk elements than agalloch.

I can't fucking believe this. Have you ever listenned to the albums Ashes Against The Grain and/or Pale Folklore ?

Yes, I have. Nothing special. Some of the songs are actually annoying. Some are ok.

Hmmmm I have a different opinion so I must be objectively wrong. Face it, it's your god damn opinion. Agalloch is some of the most uncreative shit I've heard. They're bearable though...

No, you are objectively wrong. Creativity is not based on individuals opinions, it's based on objective observation of the capability of an artist to display creativity. Shitty deathcore bands who just sweep through the pentatonic scale over chug-chug riffs are not creative bands. They might be skilled and very good to play technical stuff, but they do not display any kind of uniqueness and creativity.

"Creativity refers to the phenomenon whereby a person creates something new (a product, a solution, a work of art etc.) that has some kind of value. What counts as "new" may be in reference to the individual creator, or to the society or domain within which the novelty occurs. What counts as "valuable" is similarly defined in a variety of ways. "

Saying that criteria like creativity and uniqueness are subjective is wrong. So stuff wielding your silly "everything is in the eye of the beholder" argument. Only people who don't want to stop and think use that kind of argument. If a band has created something new, they are OBJECTIVELY creative.

New in what regards? Because it could be seen as though once agalloch made one album, the next wouldn't be creative seeing as how it would be similar.

Hate them all you want. You can say "I think they are boring." Then that's just a fucking opinion. Maybe you don't like their kind of music, but saying they are uncreative is wrong.

Again, creative or new in what regard?

Nachtreich. MUCH better and actually has folk and classical influences. No vocals either. If anything THIS is the perfect combo of metal and folk/classical.

So... you said "There are other bands who do the exact same thing and who don't get half the recognition that Agalloch gets", but now you are claiming they are completely different... You previously stated Agalloch had no Folk or Classical influences. That just doesn't make any sense. You are just stating a preference right now, and you are not actually prooving that Agalloch are uncreative.

I NEVER said Nachtreich was " different " you pulled that out of your ass. I said they're better. More creative.

If you had actually ever ANY amount of folk or classical music you would know that agalloch hardly has any in it. Playing steel string =/= folk or classical. And don't give me that neofolk or folk metal bullshit. There is no folk in agalloch.

I never said anything about Agalloch being influenced by classical music.

Folk then.

Agalloch are heavily influenced by Neofolk. Maybe it's not your SOOOO awesome folk music, but it's still neofolk. And strangly, bands like Musk Ox, who play classical guitars, flutes and countless other instruments talk about Agalloch as being one of their biggest influences.

No neofolk. You want to know what neofolk is? Nachtreich is neofolk. Agalloch also influenced a band? OMG that totally means something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL8gT8wBo r8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuMAPwrFk Sg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ezwyg9W1 T0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6OqDZft4 2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlUhLRaV 5o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3bhuNUhM uI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qatvLZqU Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETpNoIo_B f0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ueqNLNfp TQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CriOF8z-w TM&feature=related
And where the fuck would I be without the moon and the nightspirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90mfXjD_1 Gs

So... yeah... cool music... what the fuck are you prooving right now? The third link shows a gui playing the harp. This is the kind of stuff you could hear in Agalloch's music...

No it isn't.

I don't know what's going on in your head right now. You seem to be holding a grudge against Agalloch for being fake-folk or whatever. But nobody ever claimed they were folk artists. They are basically a band mixing different musical genres, while keeping the Metal and Post-Rock genres as the base of their sound. If you don't like it, nothing forces you to listen to their stuff. But claiming they are generic, uncreative and not unique, is wrong.

In some sense every band is creative, regardless of how generic.

And slipknot has some metal sounds in their music but they're not metal. Having a few seconds of one kind of music is nothing.

And I don't care what you want to call Agalloch, they could be fucking post avante garde industrial melodic black metal, I don't care. They're not Folk though. Nor are they Neofolk. Nor are they Folk metal.

At 6/9/11 05:35 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: From all around the world? I'm laughing hard now. If you consider some generic acoustic interlude to be music from around the world you are sadly mistaken. As I've posted already, countless folk bands. With different folk styles. Agalloch does not mix folk from around the world.

I was not talking about Agalloch only. And if you want to talk slightingly to me, go fuck yourself. I don't need your childish fucking insults. Nobody does, and you just look like a moron, cause you're the one who missunderstood my words.

I like how you interpret your opinion as fact.

I like how you disregard all my arguments and use sophistical arguments to fill in the gaps.

"Creativity refers to the phenomenon whereby a person creates something new (a product, a solution, a work of art etc.) that has some kind of value. What counts as "new" may be in reference to the individual creator, or to the society or domain within which the novelty occurs. What counts as "valuable" is similarly defined in a variety of ways. "

Nice copy+paste. You are not creative if you took a green shit yesterday and that your shit is slightly browner today.

A creative artist is someone who can come up with something that was not done countless times before. I don't give a shit about your dictionnary definition. You actually know that some people spend their lives discussing these matters in Universities? Your definition is far from being universal.

New in what regards? Because it could be seen as though once agalloch made one album, the next wouldn't be creative seeing as how it would be similar.

And how are they uncreative, then? Cause looking at your definition of "creativity", they would be one of the most creative bands in the world.

Again, creative or new in what regard?

In the regard of what has been done in the world before. So if I say Metallica were creative before they started Thrash Metal with a few other bands, I would be RIGHT. This is not subjective. And maybe you could say they were not creative later in their career, because their stuff didn't evolve a lot. But that's still not subjective. You couldn't argue that Justin Bieber is "creative" in anyway. So yes, there is a lot of ways to be creative, but not everything is creative. Would you dare saying all words can mean anything? Why the fuck should we use words than?

Agalloch are creative in both ways. They started a new genre, and from one album to the other, they change their style. Back to you... how can you say they are uncreative?

I NEVER said Nachtreich was " different " you pulled that out of your ass. I said they're better. More creative.

Instead of throwing fucking insults at me, could you ask me why I said that? You didn't say Nachtreich was different. You said there is a lot of bands who play the same kind of music, but who are not getting recognition for what they do. Then I asked you to proove it to me. And you started throwing YouTube links in.

You said Agalloch were not unique. I asked you to proove it to me, and you provided links to music that isn't like Agalloch. Wtf?

No neofolk. You want to know what neofolk is? Nachtreich is neofolk. Agalloch also influenced a band? OMG that totally means something.

I only named Gallowbraid because that's the only band I was thinking of at the moment when writting my post. Fen is another band that was obviously heavily influenced by Agalloch. I can also throw in some other bands names... The Morningside... Cold Body Radiation. Even some Depressive Black Metal bands share a lot of elements with Agalloch. Mixing Post-Rock with Metal was never done before Agalloch and Sculptured did it...

In some sense every band is creative, regardless of how generic.

No. If a word can be used to define EVERYTHING, then it cannot be used to define ANYTHING. It's like saying all music is musical. Come on.

And slipknot has some metal sounds in their music but they're not metal. Having a few seconds of one kind of music is nothing.

Go get The White EP :)

And I don't care what you want to call Agalloch, they could be fucking post avante garde industrial melodic black metal, I don't care. They're not Folk though. Nor are they Neofolk. Nor are they Folk metal.

White EP :)

At 6/9/11 06:04 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: And if you want to talk slightingly to me, go fuck yourself. I don't need your childish fucking insults.

This is where I draw the line with these arguments. You can't tell someone to go fuck themselves and immediately say you don't need childish insults from anyone. I don't mind debates in this thread but if it gets to this point, I have to ask to calm thing down with the flame wars. This goes to the both of you.

I really don't see how Slipknot isn't metal. Maybe their early stuff wasn't, but how is their latest album not metal?

At 6/9/11 06:21 PM, DeIirium wrote: I really don't see how Slipknot isn't metal. Maybe their early stuff wasn't, but how is their latest album not metal?

All Hope is Gone?

Because I for one thought All Hope is Gone was too full of shitty ballads and there was only one good song that sounded metal-esque and that was the title track.

At 6/9/11 06:04 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/9/11 05:35 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: From all around the world? I'm laughing hard now. If you consider some generic acoustic interlude to be music from around the world you are sadly mistaken. As I've posted already, countless folk bands. With different folk styles. Agalloch does not mix folk from around the world.

I was not talking about Agalloch only. And if you want to talk slightingly to me, go fuck yourself. I don't need your childish fucking insults. Nobody does, and you just look like a moron, cause you're the one who missunderstood my words.

I'm sure you look so much better right?

I like how you interpret your opinion as fact.

I like how you disregard all my arguments and use sophistical arguments to fill in the gaps.

I like how your arguments are already riddled with holes and bullshit.

"Creativity refers to the phenomenon whereby a person creates something new (a product, a solution, a work of art etc.) that has some kind of value. What counts as "new" may be in reference to the individual creator, or to the society or domain within which the novelty occurs. What counts as "valuable" is similarly defined in a variety of ways. "

Nice copy+paste. You are not creative if you took a green shit yesterday and that your shit is slightly browner today.

Nice way to misunderstand what I'm saying.

A creative artist is someone who can come up with something that was not done countless times before. I don't give a shit about your dictionnary definition. You actually know that some people spend their lives discussing these matters in Universities? Your definition is far from being universal.

In one sense, yes, however new can literally mean new. As in I just released this. Creative can mean an artist that just made their first album.

New in what regards? Because it could be seen as though once agalloch made one album, the next wouldn't be creative seeing as how it would be similar.

And how are they uncreative, then? Cause looking at your definition of "creativity", they would be one of the most creative bands in the world.

No, you don't understand what I'm saying. They were creative in the sense that they released something new. Besides, there were bands before agalloch that played " folk metal "

Again, creative or new in what regard?

In the regard of what has been done in the world before. So if I say Metallica were creative before they started Thrash Metal with a few other bands, I would be RIGHT. This is not subjective. And maybe you could say they were not creative later in their career, because their stuff didn't evolve a lot. But that's still not subjective. You couldn't argue that Justin Bieber is "creative" in anyway. So yes, there is a lot of ways to be creative, but not everything is creative. Would you dare saying all words can mean anything? Why the fuck should we use words than?

I can say words mean anything actually, but thats philosophy. Giving words one meaning just makes it easier to communicate.

Agalloch are creative in both ways. They started a new genre, and from one album to the other, they change their style. Back to you... how can you say they are uncreative?

Uncreative as in their albums are all pretty damn similar. Death was creative, all of their albums had a different sound. But agalloch revolves around the same formula.

I NEVER said Nachtreich was " different " you pulled that out of your ass. I said they're better. More creative.

Instead of throwing fucking insults at me, could you ask me why I said that? You didn't say Nachtreich was different. You said there is a lot of bands who play the same kind of music, but who are not getting recognition for what they do. Then I asked you to proove it to me. And you started throwing YouTube links in.

And?

You said Agalloch were not unique. I asked you to proove it to me, and you provided links to music that isn't like Agalloch. Wtf?

Bands that played their style before they started.
Summoning
Windir
Vintersorg especially
Waylander
Suidakra
SKYCLAD
Bathory
Cruachan
Empyrium
Falkenbach
Your own Mago de oz
Primordial
Shaman
Moonspell

I'm sure I'm still missing some.

No neofolk. You want to know what neofolk is? Nachtreich is neofolk. Agalloch also influenced a band? OMG that totally means something.

I only named Gallowbraid because that's the only band I was thinking of at the moment when writting my post. Fen is another band that was obviously heavily influenced by Agalloch. I can also throw in some other bands names... The Morningside... Cold Body Radiation. Even some Depressive Black Metal bands share a lot of elements with Agalloch. Mixing Post-Rock with Metal was never done before Agalloch and Sculptured did it...

List

In some sense every band is creative, regardless of how generic.

No. If a word can be used to define EVERYTHING, then it cannot be used to define ANYTHING. It's like saying all music is musical. Come on.

Did you not understand that definition of creative?

And slipknot has some metal sounds in their music but they're not metal. Having a few seconds of one kind of music is nothing.

Go get The White EP :)

And I don't care what you want to call Agalloch, they could be fucking post avante garde industrial melodic black metal, I don't care. They're not Folk though. Nor are they Neofolk. Nor are they Folk metal.

White EP :)

At 6/9/11 06:39 PM, Gobblemeister wrote:

At 6/9/11 06:21 PM, DeIirium wrote: I really don't see how Slipknot isn't metal. Maybe their early stuff wasn't, but how is their latest album not metal?

All Hope is Gone?

Because I for one thought All Hope is Gone was too full of shitty ballads and there was only one good song that sounded metal-esque and that was the title track.

Clearly you haven't listened to it very much then. There's only like one ballad. and most of the songs are similar to the title track in sound, which is definitely a metal song.

At 6/9/11 06:39 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: In one sense, yes, however new can literally mean new. As in I just released this. Creative can mean an artist that just made their first album.

When someone says "Nothing new" about this, when they hear a new album... they are obviously not saying the album is not new, like if it didn't came out recently. They mean that there is nothing new to this album. Like... nothing that was not already seen before.

We are obviously talking about a particular kind of creativity. I don't like it when you say "When someone releases a new album, he is creative cause he is creating something." You are just messing with words. I'm talking about artistic creativity. And I'm pretty sure I made it obvious in my first post. Agalloch are one of the most creative bands I know... I obviously didn't meant that they released a lot of albums... making them one of the most creative bands in the world. That just wouldn't make sense...

No, you don't understand what I'm saying. They were creative in the sense that they released something new. Besides, there were bands before agalloch that played " folk metal "

You said and I quote "They are one of the most uncreative bands in the world." Following your own definition, you simply couldn't say that.

However, I never stated they were the first Folk Metal band ever. I said they were the first band to succesfully mix Metal with Post-Rock, while including Black Metal, Folk Metal, Neofolk and Doom Metal elements to their music.

I can say words mean anything actually, but thats philosophy. Giving words one meaning just makes it easier to communicate.

I'm not saying we should have only one definition for a word. I'm saying words have a meaning and you can just stretch the definitions forever. Is Bieber creative? "Yes he is, he makes albums." You know that's not what I meant, you were just pulling and pulling on the definition like it was a rubber band, to proove me that everything is subjective.

So I won't use the word creative then... I will say, that Agalloch write music like no other band as ever done before. But then someone would just drop in and say "Oh, you mean they are creative?" In the end, my point still stands. Following my definition and yours, Agalloch is creative. But you claimed they were not...

Uncreative as in their albums are all pretty damn similar. Death was creative, all of their albums had a different sound. But agalloch revolves around the same formula.

Well again... that's not true. And even in a subjective way it's not true. Marrow Of The Spirit is far more black metal oriented, darker, more agressive. It's actually the first album on which they used the double-pedals. Even the production and the instruments are different from what they have done before. Ashes Against The Grain is the most "doomish", oriented toward heavy mid-paced riffs and the frequent use of accoustic guitars and the most heavily post-rock influenced album. Pale Folklore is somewhat like Bergtatt by Ulver. They mix a softer kind of black metal with folk metal, with the Agalloch touch... they throw in some post-rock in there. The Mantle is the most experimental album. It almost drifts away completely from the Atmospheric Metal genre, to play with Neofolk, Post-Rock, Gothic Rock and other genres.

I seriously cannot understand how you could say that their stuff always sounds the same...

I NEVER said Nachtreich was " different " you pulled that out of your ass. I said they're better. More creative.

Bands that played their style before they started.
Summoning
Windir
Vintersorg especially
Waylander
Suidakra
SKYCLAD
Bathory
Cruachan
Empyrium
Falkenbach
Your own Mago de oz
Primordial
Shaman
Moonspell

I'm sure I'm still missing some.

No... cause you are still focusing only on fucking Folk Metal bands, and I never said Agalloch were the first Folk Metal band. Agalloch are obviously influenced by bands like Primordial. But that kind of argument is simply useless, because every artist is influenced by other artists. But some artists just can't do more than mix influences and copy other artists, without actually creating anything NEW. But Agalloch did. I know Empyrium, Primordial, Bathory and Summoning for the simple fact that I like all these bands. I'm a huge Agalloch fan, and I don't see how Agalloch are playing the same musical genre as these guys... Hell! Even between these artists you have listed there is huge genre differences.

You can't say a band is not creative because it's influenced by other bands. You can say that some bands just feed on other bands success and don't try to push their art any further, though.

At 6/9/11 06:48 PM, DeIirium wrote: Clearly you haven't listened to it very much then. There's only like one ballad. and most of the songs are similar to the title track in sound, which is definitely a metal song.

No, he's right. This is probably the least metal influenced project by Slipknot so far... They always were a Nu-Metal band, but now they are adding more and more Hard Rock elements to their music.

Blood Red Throne - Ripsaw Resentment

At 6/9/11 07:30 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/9/11 06:39 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:
At 6/9/11 06:48 PM, DeIirium wrote:

No, he's right. This is probably the least metal influenced project by Slipknot so far... They always were a Nu-Metal band, but now they are adding more and more Hard Rock elements to their music.

Blood Red Throne - Ripsaw Resentment

No, he isn't, there's only one ballad on the album. And how does this or this sound anything like hard rock? I've always thought that hard rock is stuff like Guns n roses and AC/DC. Slipknot hasn't been nu-metal either for a long time.

At 6/9/11 07:47 PM, DeIirium wrote: I've always thought that hard rock is stuff like Guns n roses and AC/DC.

That's what I said when AniMetal called later Helloween hard rock. I made the statement then and I'll say it again. Hard rock is a horribly vague genre if bands like Slipknot, Helloween and AC/DC can all be called it.

At 6/9/11 07:47 PM, DeIirium wrote: No, he isn't, there's only one ballad on the album. And how does this or this sound anything like hard rock? I've always thought that hard rock is stuff like Guns n roses and AC/DC. Slipknot hasn't been nu-metal either for a long time.

Like he said, the title track of the album is the most Metal influenced track on the album. Both are nu-metal, the second one more obviously then the first one. But the first one does have legitimate metal elements, yes.

At 6/9/11 07:53 PM, Bahamut wrote:

At 6/9/11 07:47 PM, DeIirium wrote: I've always thought that hard rock is stuff like Guns n roses and AC/DC.

That's what I said when AniMetal called later Helloween hard rock. I made the statement then and I'll say it again. Hard rock is a horribly vague genre if bands like Slipknot, Helloween and AC/DC can all be called it.

All genres are actually more or less vague, it's not like there exists an objective definition anywhere for what is metal, hard rock, punk etc.

At 6/9/11 07:54 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/9/11 07:47 PM, DeIirium wrote: No, he isn't, there's only one ballad on the album. And how does this or this sound anything like hard rock? I've always thought that hard rock is stuff like Guns n roses and AC/DC. Slipknot hasn't been nu-metal either for a long time.

Like he said, the title track of the album is the most Metal influenced track on the album. Both are nu-metal, the second one more obviously then the first one. But the first one does have legitimate metal elements, yes.

Nu metal, to me, seems like another vaguely defined, ambiguous genre that many bands of various musical styles get labeled as.
In any case, Slipknot's music prevalently and consistently contains many of the most typical characteristics of metal, which is why I don't see why they wouldn't be a metal band.

Personally, I think folk metal isn't a real genre.

Folk metal and progressive metal are the two metal genres, which aren't actually genres, but are rather additive terms.

Let me explain. Opeth, Dream Theater, Symphony X, Angra, Porcupine Tree, Atheist, Mindflow and Zero Hour are all progressive metal... but rather it means they are other genres of metal that are progressive.

With folk metal, it tends to be doom metal, melodic death metal, black metal or power metal. It's more of an additive term then anything. The SOLE exception is Korpiklaani - whom I actually don't think are metal at all as they don't have a single metal characteristic besides some harsher vocals...

At 6/9/11 07:53 PM, Bahamut wrote:

At 6/9/11 07:47 PM, DeIirium wrote: I've always thought that hard rock is stuff like Guns n roses and AC/DC.

That's what I said when AniMetal called later Helloween hard rock. I made the statement then and I'll say it again. Hard rock is a horribly vague genre if bands like Slipknot, Helloween and AC/DC can all be called it.

Different genres of rock, yo.

But I don't think slipknot is rock. I always thought of them as like NU metal or something. I don't really know, i've only heard two songs by them I think. haha

At 6/9/11 07:30 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 6/9/11 06:39 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: In one sense, yes, however new can literally mean new. As in I just released this. Creative can mean an artist that just made their first album.

When someone says "Nothing new" about this, when they hear a new album... they are obviously not saying the album is not new, like if it didn't came out recently. They mean that there is nothing new to this album. Like... nothing that was not already seen before.

That is one meaning, yes.

We are obviously talking about a particular kind of creativity. I don't like it when you say "When someone releases a new album, he is creative cause he is creating something." You are just messing with words. I'm talking about artistic creativity. And I'm pretty sure I made it obvious in my first post. Agalloch are one of the most creative bands I know... I obviously didn't meant that they released a lot of albums... making them one of the most creative bands in the world. That just wouldn't make sense...

I'm not messing with words actually. You said it yourself, people are still arguing about this kind of stuff.

No, you don't understand what I'm saying. They were creative in the sense that they released something new. Besides, there were bands before agalloch that played " folk metal "

You said and I quote "They are one of the most uncreative bands in the world." Following your own definition, you simply couldn't say that.

One of my definitions, what they made simply isn't revolutionary to music. There have been other doom metal, black metal mixing bands.

However, I never stated they were the first Folk Metal band ever. I said they were the first band to succesfully mix Metal with Post-Rock, while including Black Metal, Folk Metal, Neofolk and Doom Metal elements to their music.

Nope, take out the folk parts.

I can say words mean anything actually, but thats philosophy. Giving words one meaning just makes it easier to communicate.

I'm not saying we should have only one definition for a word. I'm saying words have a meaning and you can just stretch the definitions forever. Is Bieber creative? "Yes he is, he makes albums." You know that's not what I meant, you were just pulling and pulling on the definition like it was a rubber band, to proove me that everything is subjective.

Everything is subjective. I can stretch the definition as long as I want. Our original " language " was just grunts. Words can mean absolutely anything. Words have no inherent meaning. But this is seriously off topic.

So I won't use the word creative then... I will say, that Agalloch write music like no other band as ever done before. But then someone would just drop in and say "Oh, you mean they are creative?" In the end, my point still stands. Following my definition and yours, Agalloch is creative. But you claimed they were not...

In one meaning of the word they aren't.

Uncreative as in their albums are all pretty damn similar. Death was creative, all of their albums had a different sound. But agalloch revolves around the same formula.

Well again... that's not true. And even in a subjective way it's not true. Marrow Of The Spirit is far more black metal oriented, darker, more agressive. It's actually the first album on which they used the double-pedals. Even the production and the instruments are different from what they have done before. Ashes Against The Grain is the most "doomish", oriented toward heavy mid-paced riffs and the frequent use of accoustic guitars and the most heavily post-rock influenced album. Pale Folklore is somewhat like Bergtatt by Ulver. They mix a softer kind of black metal with folk metal, with the Agalloch touch... they throw in some post-rock in there. The Mantle is the most experimental album. It almost drifts away completely from the Atmospheric Metal genre, to play with Neofolk, Post-Rock, Gothic Rock and other genres.

I seriously cannot understand how you could say that their stuff always sounds the same...

You don't understand opinions?

Bands that played their style before they started.
Summoning
Windir
Vintersorg especially
Waylander
Suidakra
SKYCLAD
Bathory
Cruachan
Empyrium
Falkenbach
Your own Mago de oz
Primordial
Shaman
Moonspell

I'm sure I'm still missing some.

No... cause you are still focusing only on fucking Folk Metal bands, and I never said Agalloch were the first Folk Metal band.

Some of those bands were just " folk metal " but some in there definitely had the sound going before agalloch.

You can't say a band is not creative because it's influenced by other bands. You can say that some bands just feed on other bands success and don't try to push their art any further, though.

I didn't say that.

What I'm saying is, take the folk label off of agalloch and you have doom, black, and " post rock ". Which has been done before.

At 6/9/11 08:11 PM, AniMetal wrote: Personally, I think folk metal isn't a real genre.

Folk metal and progressive metal are the two metal genres, which aren't actually genres, but are rather additive terms.

Let me explain. Opeth, Dream Theater, Symphony X, Angra, Porcupine Tree, Atheist, Mindflow and Zero Hour are all progressive metal... but rather it means they are other genres of metal that are progressive.

With folk metal, it tends to be doom metal, melodic death metal, black metal or power metal. It's more of an additive term then anything. The SOLE exception is Korpiklaani - whom I actually don't think are metal at all as they don't have a single metal characteristic besides some harsher vocals...

Actually... this X100

Like Fejd, they definitely have folk in their music. But not metal. All of their music was folk with some occasional almost slightly kinda not really metal sounds.

At 6/9/11 08:21 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: You don't understand opinions?

You are just getting on my nerves with that. No, this is not subjective. If I said Agalloch and Eminem sound the same, you would be allowed to tell me I'm retard. IT'S NOT AN OPINION! It's a fucking fact. No, you can't have the opinion that all Agalloch albums sound the same, except if your a dumbass who never heard electric guitars before. They are just objectively different!

Some of those bands were just " folk metal " but some in there definitely had the sound going before agalloch.

Agalloch did create a whole new sound. Not with Pale Folklore. It's unique, but it still reminds me of Bergtatt. But there is no album in the one that sounds like Ashes Against The Grain. After Agalloch released it, a lot of bands started doing the same. But before Agalloch, there was nothing like AATG.

What I'm saying is, take the folk label off of agalloch and you have doom, black, and " post rock ". Which has been done before.

You can't simply use the genre tags and say doom, black and post-rock as been done before. It's like saying you can't have a unique sound if you play music that fits a genre that already exists. Take it further then just the genre classifications. Nobody, and I mean nobody writes music like John Haughm. His riffs are like Dave Mustaine's riff. No matter how "thrash metal" they are, they are unique. They fit a genre, but they are "never heard before" riffs.

And no, not everything is subjective. Dare to say that in any University class and you'll get an F. Language is used to describe the reality. Yes, the word water was made up. But it describes something that is real. Something that even withtout the word "water" would still be "that liquid thing". Of course there can be piss in your water, or mud, or apple juice... It's still water. Same thing goes with the word "creativity" that we have been discussing way too much. Creativity can take many forms, but not all forms.

At 6/9/11 08:11 PM, AniMetal wrote: Let me explain. Opeth, Dream Theater, Symphony X, Angra, Porcupine Tree, Atheist, Mindflow and Zero Hour are all progressive metal... but rather it means they are other genres of metal that are progressive.

With folk metal, it tends to be doom metal, melodic death metal, black metal or power metal. It's more of an additive term then anything. The SOLE exception is Korpiklaani - whom I actually don't think are metal at all as they don't have a single metal characteristic besides some harsher vocals...

Good point actually.

But some bands like Dream Theater, while you know they are Progressive Metal... it's kind of hard to find another genre they fit (Like Symphony X is Progressive Power Metal). What would Dream Theater be?

Empyrium - Ode to Melancholy

At 6/9/11 08:45 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Good point actually.

But some bands like Dream Theater, while you know they are Progressive Metal... it's kind of hard to find another genre they fit (Like Symphony X is Progressive Power Metal). What would Dream Theater be?

Wut? Symphony X are totally progressive thrash metal. With the exception of "out of the ashes" and maybe a song or two on the V album, they aren't power metal at all.

Once you get past the fact they weren't from the 80's and that they have keyboards, SX are totally thrash. Seriously, go listen to Pharaoh, Fallen and King Of Terrors. haha

Dream theater, it depends on the album. I honestly consider everything before SDOIT to just be progressive rock with an occasional metal riff or solo. Six degrees onwards, I consider it dependant on the song. Things like I walk besides you are pop, misunderstood is prog rock, panic attack and stuff is proggie thrash, etc.

Empyrium - Ode to Melancholy

I approve.

Personally, i've always enjoyed Empyrium more then Agalloch. I love them both though.

I got Vintersorg's new album, Jordplus, a few more Rotting Christ albums, and Kekal's latest album, 8.

At 6/2/11 11:25 AM, PenisClown wrote: Fuck Heri.

Nay, fuck thee, sir. Verily, fuck thee as a slovenly strumpet.

At 6/7/11 04:29 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Really getting into lux Occulta, any reccomendations?

Their only really great album is the Mother and the Enemy, which I tried to get people to listen to a while ago. It's just awesome. The two albums before that are mediocre and not so interesting. They changed the style on each album, pretty much, and they had a great sound on the Mother and the Enemy. My Guardian Anger is okay, though.

At 6/9/11 03:13 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: But Agalloch is not folk. They're a mediocre band that gets over hyped and turned into something they're not.

I think Ashes Against the Grain and the Mantle are some of the best albums in modern metal. And they definitely are unique.

At 6/9/11 09:27 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: I think Ashes Against the Grain and the Mantle are some of the best albums in modern metal. And they definitely are unique.

Definitely some of my favorite albums of all time.

At 6/9/11 08:53 PM, AniMetal wrote: Wut? Symphony X are totally progressive thrash metal. With the exception of "out of the ashes" and maybe a song or two on the V album, they aren't power metal at all.

I think your definition of Power Metal is too restrictive... You often tell me that one band or another isn't a power metal band, no matter what the rest of the metal community seem to believe. Thrash and Power Metal grew from the same roots. And even if you do know a lot of power metal bands... I've seen you call Helloween, Edguy and now Symphony X non-power metal bands... I seriously think your definition of Power Metal is too restrictive.

Even if you disagree, I think that they have obvious power metal influences. Also Thrash? Maybe, yes. Since these two genres did came from the same roots, it wouldn't surprise me if they took influences from both.

Blood Red Throne - Deliberate Carnage