i don't see why nev not liking agalloch is a big deal. we don't all have to love the same bands, even if they're your favorite band.

i only have ashes against the grain, i never really felt like checking anything else out but i liked it

At 10/13/10 01:37 PM, D3NTATUS wrote: i don't see why nev not liking agalloch is a big deal.

Ditto. I don't even like any of their work.

At 10/13/10 01:37 PM, D3NTATUS wrote: i only have ashes against the grain, i never really felt like checking anything else out but i liked it

I didn't like that album all that much, but The Mantle was good. I'm not a big fan of them either. Anybody have any metal they like to listen to in the fall? A personal pick for me is Opeth's Orchid. I really got into that album two falls ago and it's good to listen to it around now.

At 10/7/10 06:52 PM, ZimTehRular wrote: what of?

video games and anime. I have a lot of OSTs. I recently added a bunch, too, including Okami, Oddworld Stranger's Wrath, Wild 9, Vexx, Final Fantasy 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 piano collections, and many others.

At 10/12/10 12:45 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: Hey guys, I was just wondering who does and who doesn't know Agalloch. If you do know them, I would like you to rank their albums, demos and EPs included, starting with your favorite at the top.

My favorite album of theirs is the Mantle, but the Isle of Summer and Birch Black from the White EP are both among my favorite songs of theirs, and I also love Ashes Against the Grain, which has another two of my favorite songs, Limbs and Falling Snow. Pale Folklore is good, too, but I haven't listened to it much. It's all good. I'm definitely looking forward to Marrow of the Spirit. I guess I'd rank them like....

the Mantle
the White
Ashes Against the Grain
Pale Folklore

At 10/13/10 12:08 AM, Ganon-Dorf wrote:

welcome back! hard to forget your username and sig.

At 10/13/10 04:53 PM, CapnCrunchDaPimp wrote: Anybody have any metal they like to listen to in the fall?

Agalloch

At 10/13/10 06:55 PM, Sense-Offender wrote:

At 10/13/10 04:53 PM, CapnCrunchDaPimp wrote: Anybody have any metal they like to listen to in the fall?

Agalloch

They strike me as more of a winter/spring type of band but that's ok.

At 10/13/10 02:23 PM, AllMightyBruce wrote:

At 10/13/10 01:37 PM, D3NTATUS wrote: i don't see why nev not liking agalloch is a big deal.

Ditto. I don't even like any of their work.

Here's the difference between saying "They are not that good" and "I don't even like any of their work"
One is a statement made about the quality of their music and one is a statement about your personnal appreciation of the music.

Knowing a band can be good even though you don't like it, is quite important...

At 10/13/10 06:59 PM, CapnCrunchDaPimp wrote: They strike me as more of a winter/spring type of band but that's ok.

Some of their stuff brings images of winter in my mind, but others make me picture autumn.

In other news, Welcome To Sky Valley by Kyuss is a fucking masterpiece.

At 10/13/10 04:53 PM, CapnCrunchDaPimp wrote: A personal pick for me is Opeth's Orchid. I really got into that album two falls ago and it's good to listen to it around now.

This is when I realise that my Facebook friend Seth Ludwig is actually you. I fucking forgot.

I'd appreciate it if someone recommended me an awesome album. I keep asking but I get nothing, you hacks =P.

There's so much music out there I havn't heard.

Oh and Bahamut, accept my friend request :D

At 10/13/10 09:43 PM, PenisClown wrote: I'd appreciate it if someone recommended me an awesome album.

Since it's you, Axis of Advance. Obey or Strike. I like both, but prefer Obey.

New episode of Metalocalypse is lolz.

Fuck you Linkin Park and Slipknot.

At 10/13/10 08:34 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Here's the difference between saying "They are not that good" and "I don't even like any of their work"

The only difference between the two lies in how wadded your panties get.

One is a statement made about the quality of their music

Quality means "I like it." There isn't some transcendental measure of what is or isn't quality.

and one is a statement about your personal appreciation of the music.

Which is all that anyone can hope to accomplish.

Knowing a band can be good even though you don't like it, is quite important...

If what is "good" is different from person to person what you're then effectively saying is that knowing a band can be LIKED, even though you don't like it, is quite important. Nobody, not even Dalnaki, isn't already aware of that.

HeavenDuff says that all the time, and you guys just rip into him and make it seem like he doesn't know shit, when all he's trying to say, is that people can make QUALITY music with EFFORT in it, or they can make a song with four chords, or a song with no effort and quality. Like a song with one note in it or something.

Cut the cunt some slack.

All I feel for this video is love.

And thanks, someone actually recommended me something.

At 10/13/10 09:43 PM, PenisClown wrote: This is when I realise that my Facebook friend Seth Ludwig is actually you. I fucking forgot.

What's your name? I didn't even know I added you. D:

I'd appreciate it if someone recommended me an awesome album. I keep asking but I get nothing, you hacks =P.

I just got a few albums from the experimental band Adebisi Shank. They have awesome guitar hooks, and a contrast of heavier moments and softer moments.

At 10/13/10 01:37 PM, D3NTATUS wrote: i don't see why nev not liking agalloch is a big deal. we don't all have to love the same bands, even if they're your favorite band.

I've tried a few songs of theirs. Nothing sticks out right now but I think I can get into them if I explored into them more.

At 10/13/10 09:43 PM, PenisClown wrote: Oh and Bahamut, accept my friend request :D

Ohh, that was you who added me today. I wasn't sure who it was but it's a good thing I'm kind with friend requests by accepting anyone with any mutual friends.

At 10/13/10 09:12 PM, AniMetal wrote: In other news, Welcome To Sky Valley by Kyuss is a fucking masterpiece.

I love that album, I have their whole discography.

At 10/14/10 02:07 AM, TakeNoPrisoners wrote:

At 10/13/10 08:34 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Here's the difference between saying "They are not that good" and "I don't even like any of their work"

The only difference between the two lies in how wadded your panties get.

No.

One is a statement made about the quality of their music

Quality means "I like it." There isn't some transcendental measure of what is or isn't quality.

You fucking suck if you think that...

There is a fucking measure of quality. You can't compare Keisha to Mozart, you can't compare Nickelback to Eric Clapton.

Same thing for movies, you can't compare Sunshine to High School Musical 3, you can't compare American Pie to Annie Hall.

If you think artistic value cannot be even evaluated, you are wrong. Relativism in arts is a fucking plague and you can't pretend to understand arts if you can't even tell why Picasso is a better artist then your little brother.

The stupid foolish retarded statement "Everything is in the eye of the beholder" is totally false. Creativity, deepness, uniqueness, artistic purpose (and a bunch of other qualities) is what determines the quality of the work. "Artists" who release albums only for commercial purposes are not good artists, for they will always try to fit the actual thread in pop music. Where is the creativity? Where is the artistic value? Oh! I guess it's in the eye of the beholder !!! Explainning why a 8 years old girl can argue with a classical music composer about the progression in Miley Cyrus most recent album. Fuck you guys!

and one is a statement about your personal appreciation of the music.

Which is all that anyone can hope to accomplish.

No. I don't like Opeth, still I understand why they are good. I don't like High On Fire, still I can understand why they are good. Some artists I like are way below Opeth in terms of artistic value, but I still appreciate them because they are entertaining. Music if fucking complex, and breaking it down to "Everything is in the eye of the beholder" is a fucking foolish conception of music.

Knowing a band can be good even though you don't like it, is quite important...

If what is "good" is different from person to person what you're then effectively saying is that knowing a band can be LIKED, even though you don't like it, is quite important. Nobody, not even Dalnaki, isn't already aware of that.

Music is not all objective and all subjective. While some music IS better than other, when you have creativity, uniqueness and at least some kind of effort to bring something new to the table in music, than you have a good artist, no matter what your tastes are.

What makes the Beetles good is the fact that they brought something new to arts, something new to music. If I was to start a band that would sound exactly like The Beetles, I would suck balls, cause copying an artist, is not going to make you an artist...

Just think about it... Da Vinci has painted the Mona Lisa, if a machine could make a perfect replica of it, would it have the same value as the original?

Anyway, you don't have to aproove on my opinion, but could you try to understand my point of view? Try to understand why I think that personnal tastes and opinions are not enough to determine who is the best artist between Sonny Rollins and Miley Cyrus.

And if you can't, than just stop trying to argue with me, cause we definitely won't come to an agreement...

At 10/14/10 07:48 AM, PenisClown wrote: Cut the cunt some slack.

I just can't fucking understand why you are being such a dick... Stop playing the fucking smartass... You are a fucking annoying twat shit... Stop being so pretentious and pompous. You are just a fucking stupid teenager, you don't know shit of life and can't help but think that you are the supremacy of intelligence amongs the human specie... you are a fucking pathetic self-loving cunt and you obviously do not understand my views on the subject we are discussing.

I think that there is a value in music, an artistic value that cannot be found in every single song ever written. This is not elitism, this is a point of view, that I can easily explain. Show some maturity and try to understand my views before judging them with your stupid clustered-mind opinions.

It's easier to talk about music like it's objective, instead of like it's subjective. That would just be self-defeating.

Don't you guys know?

Listen here Duff, I may be brutally honest but understand that if I didn't think I could stand to help you in some way I wouldn't bother with you at all.

Our problem lies in the fact that you've baptized all of what you deem to be "higher" art as being the only "quality" art. Arts' only purpose is to incite pleasure. Any art that accomplishes that goal is "quality" art. There are "higher" and "lower" arts with respect to how intellectually stimulating they are, but the enjoyment that one derives from them is all that matters. It's because of this that a "higher" art that isn't completely enjoyable will always be worth decidedly less than a "lower" art which actually is. To an intellectual, a piece of "quality" higher art is the greatest thing an artist can aspire to. To the unintellectual, a piece of "quality" lower art is again and conversely the greatest thing an artist can aspire to. And it's of course to be said as well that an intellectual is able to enjoy some of both, and in some cases vice versa. Either way, as long pleasure is in all cases derived the art has served its purpose. There are no transcendent qualities or values here. The same "artistic value" that you find present in only some creative works is different but not unlike the "artistic value" that the unintelligencia applies to whatever it is that they enjoy.

Also, it should be said that in your Opeth case you might consider them to be a higher art, but that means jack shit if you don't actually enjoy listening to them. It might be your temperament to show benevolence towards those who attempt to make higher arts, but if for whatever reason they should fall short in the entertainment department, and make no mistake; if they've failed to entertain you - that's exactly what they've done, they are "bad", or in less offensive terms, unenjoyable art in your eyes. You can color it any way you want but the process is the same underneath all the bluster. We might disagree, but again, our own perspectival value judgments are all that we can discuss. You're attempting whether consciously our -un, and in a frankly vein and prideful display, to reify or monopolize what is or is not "good". We enjoy the higher arts, yes. And we can disagree amongst each other as to which those are, and as well with those who would say that lower arts are somehow "better", but neither one of us is "wrong" or "right". We just are the way that we are. Value didn't come before us, we came before value.

Anyway, you don't have to aproove on my opinion, but could you try to understand my point of view?

I already do.

Try to understand why I think that personnal tastes and opinions are not enough to determine who is the best artist

The only reason I'm so persistent is because I don't think you've yet fully understood where I'm coming from. Value judgments permeate almost every aspect of our lives, it's a bit bigger than just music discussion, it's a philosophical disagreement. And philosophy has kind of been my main hobby lately.

At 10/14/10 03:04 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: rant

i actually have to agree with you here. Music does have a certain objective value. The guitarist from say, Symphony X, Michael Romeo, is OBJECTIVELY more talented than the guitarist from, say, Miley Cyrus's group. There is an objective quality to all music, but whether you enjoy it is subjective. So, I'm throwing my weight (however little it may be) behind Duff's argument.

Blah blah blah drama drama drama! Why don't you all get a room or start talking metal.

At 10/14/10 07:32 PM, TakeNoPrisoners wrote: Long Post

I mentionned only a few qualities that would make a good artist. There is far more than what I mentionned. About that part of your post in which you talk about higher and lower arts, I can't agree with you. While the enjoyment one will get from listenning to his favorite music is quite important, there are lower levels of arts. Let's just talk about metalcore here. While it is a musical genre that I still really enjoy, even if now, I enjoy a large amount of various metal artists now, is a genre that is limited, by it's impossibily to transcend itself. This genre, is limited to very simple song structures, chug riffs, breakdowns and all the characteristic you know of this genre. However, drums and vocals in metalcore, are not as limited as the bass and guitars. The greatest forms of hardcore, metalcore and deathcore genres, are fusion genres. Those that will take a lot of influences from other genres. These influences are what will help these bands push their limits further. After mentionning this, I can still admit that I like a lot of the most simplistic metalcore, because it has some kind of artistic value and an entertainment value.

Reading through the first part of your post, I find the same point of view I mentionned earlier, the idea that the most important value of music would be to entertain people, and that as long as it reaches it's goal, than it is good music. While I agree with you on this, I still think that some other music may have a lot more artistic value.

You also said something about intellectuals and unintellectual. I think that we can understand this through these two words. Still, I wouldn't call it intelligence, but maybe more like... I don't know, a kind of musical knowledge (or artistic knowledge or even a comprehension of music). You did mention that the intellectual could possibly enjoy both levels of art, but usually, the unintellectual, won't appreciate the higher forms of music. Most of these people who like to spend their time in nightclubs, cannot appreciate classical, jazz, metal, drone or even the most evolved forms of their own favorite musical genres (I'm thinking about House music fans, who simply cannot appreciate Ulver's music or other very creative electro artists). So in a way, people who learned to appreciate metal music, are usually more open towards other genres. As I got a wider knowledge of metal music, I started to get interests in Ambient, Drone, more classical artists, free-jazz, post-rock and more. While most of the guys in the Metal Hell do not share my views, I see most of them as people who learned to appreciate "artistic value" more than just the music itself. I'm not saying metal is a one way ticket to musical knowledge supremacy. I know a lot of people who think that metal is "all about being brutal, distortion guitars and trying their best to annoy pop music fans for being so lame and weak."

I actually enjoy Opeth, in the way that they bring something very interresting elements to todays music. I should take another example though, cause I do like some of Opeth's work. I should talk about Free-Jazz, which is a genre that I respect a lot, but that I cannot seem to understand well enough to enjoy it like my father would do. He's like Keith Jarreth, I went to see one of his shows with him. It was awesome, great musicianship, awesome artists, great at improvisation and a few hundred other qualities that make him a good artist. Still, I think that going into a 10 minutes improvisation, is quite of weird, for in my eyes, I don't understand how this is a song, if nothing, like a simple melody that would come back a few times around the song, would be holding it together. But again, I know that these musicians work around very precise musical ranges. So yes, there is something holding it together. So, I don't know how to fully appreciate the music, but I swear that I loved that show, I really did enjoy a lot of the solos and the drummer Jack DeJohnette is one of the most impressive drummers I have ever seen. And while I may not enjoy their music as much as I would enjoy a Threat Signal show, I still know that these guys are real beasts at what they do, and that, I can appreciate. In fact, all that I consider "higher arts" to use the same words you did, will have some kind of positive impact on me.

I'm not trying to monopolize what is good and what is not. But I would still like you to answer the questions in my previous post, or just keep reading and tell me what you think of this. You know what house music is... I say it's the junk food of electronic music. The beats and songs they use in the nightclubs are almost always the same, even if I have never heard one of these songs before, when I hear it for the first time, I know that this as been done a hundred times. This kind of music follows a cheap recipe, that is repeated over and over again. So, while I'm aware that I don't know all the good music in the world, I can tell you that most house djs... or artists... whatever they are called... are not good artists. I have stumbled upon some of Edward Maya's work, you might know him, and I was happily surprised by his work. There is a kind of value in his music, he his creative, he's trying to reinvent house music, and that is something I really like.

Talking about philosophy :P

I know what you mean good sir, I've studied a few authors at my university and I know where we disagree. The concept of relativism annoys me to the highest level. The whole idea of relativism is that "everything is in the eye of the beholder", so why should anybody try to learn about anything, since all opinions are worth the exact same thing.

So what would your musical knowledge be worth? Nothing, cause the guy who listens to house music exclusively could win over you in any discussion... just by saying: "It's my opinion." I'm asking you this... Where the fuck are we going if everybody is right...

Btw, I love having these discussions with you mate. Even if you disagree with me, you still have the maturity to explain me why in a post, for this, I thank you.

At 10/15/10 12:00 AM, smeagol1 wrote: Blah blah blah drama drama drama! Why don't you all get a room or start talking metal.

Discussing objectivity and subjectivity in arts is metal. For metal is art and therefore. Discussing arts goes beyond talking about a movie, a new music album or a painting.

At 10/14/10 03:20 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 10/14/10 07:48 AM, PenisClown wrote: Cut the cunt some slack.

I just can't fucking understand why you are being such a dick...

Dude I was defending you. That is the meanest paragraph anyone has ever said to me. And I was defending you.

Go back and read what I said, I WAS DEFENDING YOU.

Shit, someone should defend my arse. Calling me a pretentious twat shit?

You plague this metal forum with walls of text. You could just sum your shit up shortly maybe?

I was defending you because, yes, amazingly, I understand what you're saying. It's not that hard to understand what you're saying. I've been a musician for 10 years, I've studied classical music. I know what quality is. I know there's more quality in Mozart than in 30 Seconds to Mars.

And you know what quality is too.

So why are you going out of your way to write paragraphs about how much you know? A little pretentious isn't it?

man, you guys need to smoke more weed (except for ponos 'cause goddamn, we all know that fucker likes weed) and realize that people on the internet don't matter. i feel like we have this subjectivity/objectivity argument with duff at least every month. duff needs to stop getting all butthurt over nothing and everyone else needs to stop leading everyone else into the same arguments all the time. also, no more walls of texts please. i'm not gonna read that shit.

At 10/13/10 09:12 PM, AniMetal wrote: In other news, Welcome To Sky Valley by Kyuss is a fucking masterpiece.

that's what i've been saying!

it's such a simple connection to make, but your life changes once you realize that you can listen to stoner metal when you're high.

i was doing laundry a few days ago and i was sitting with my friend moony, who is a huge metalhead, and some dude came over and he was really intelligent and informed about metal and we talked for like 15 minutes about metal and how cool it is.

have you guys listened to crucial unit? they're a crossover thrash band, my friend dylan likes them, their split with municipal waste is pretty good. you guys should listen to them or at least check them out if you dig on crossover.

my university is in the middle of a redwood forest. way more metal than your college/university/whatever.

also i feel like duff would enjoy reading Kant's "Observations on the Feeling of the Beautiful and Sublime," as well as "Critique of Judgment" because, if my understanding is correct, they are seeing eye to eye about some things

Man, so much drama going on. :/

I recently bought a bunch of Motörhead albums along with Running Wild's The Rivalry. For Motörhead, I've purchased Another Perfect Day, Rock 'n' Roll, Inferno and Kiss of Death. I'll see if Orgasmatron and Iron Fist are in the shops tomorrow. All of that should be more than good for the show next month. I just wish Bill was here right now.

As for Running Wild, I was originally going to avoid the last few albums but after coming across a few songs in this album (this one I really like, I couldn't resist buying it.

At 10/15/10 11:27 AM, D3NTATUS wrote: man, you guys need to smoke more weed

Would that I could.

and realize that people on the internet don't matter

Haha, what? The internet is just another way to talk to people. Discussions can be as serious as the topic necessitates, or as serious as the people talking want it to be.

also, no more walls of texts please. i'm not gonna read that shit.

Yeah okay. It's clear that me and Duff are the only ones who care about this shit so I'll just take it to PM from now on.

At 10/15/10 11:31 AM, D3NTATUS wrote: also i feel like duff would enjoy reading Kant's blah blah bloobity blah. I'm Kant, look at me and my use of flowery language which I employ to disguise the fact that I'm a closeted mystic.

Goddammit Dent don't recommend him Kant! If you were to compile the majority of that dudes body of work into one volume you could call it the The Bible 2.

At 10/15/10 01:39 PM, TakeNoPrisoners wrote: Haha, what? The internet is just another way to talk to people. Discussions can be as serious as the topic necessitates, or as serious as the people talking want it to be.

and people in real life don't matter either, so therefore people on the internet don't matter either! hahahahah

Goddammit Dent don't recommend him Kant! If you were to compile the majority of that dudes body of work into one volume you could call it the The Bible 2.

good point. duff, you can read kant, but don't quote him in any arguments, alright? that's the rule.

and seriously you guys listen to crucial unit.

At 10/15/10 07:50 AM, PenisClown wrote:

At 10/14/10 03:20 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 10/14/10 07:48 AM, PenisClown wrote: Cut the cunt some slack.

I just can't fucking understand why you are being such a dick...

Dude I was defending you. That is the meanest paragraph anyone has ever said to me. And I was defending you.

Go back and read what I said, I WAS DEFENDING YOU.

Calling me a cunt was supposed to be defending me? Are you sure you were not being a little condescending? Or maybe it's just the way you do things, I guess I should be used to it by now :P

Shit, someone should defend my arse. Calling me a pretentious twat shit?

You plague this metal forum with walls of text. You could just sum your shit up shortly maybe?

I was defending you because, yes, amazingly, I understand what you're saying. It's not that hard to understand what you're saying. I've been a musician for 10 years, I've studied classical music. I know what quality is. I know there's more quality in Mozart than in 30 Seconds to Mars.

And you know what quality is too.

So why are you going out of your way to write paragraphs about how much you know? A little pretentious isn't it?

Sorry about all that stuff I said to you. I guess I was just angry at the moment I wrote it to you... Yeah, I really guess I have to apologize for all that shit, cause I don't even think half of these things I've said to you. I know we don't have loads of moderators reading our posts in the Metal Hell, but if some happens to do, I ask him to delete the post I've mad to insult Ponos, posted at Posted at: 10/14/10 03:20 PM

Going back to the main topic, I think it's funny how you guys all get angry when we write wall texts :P There is nothing keeping you guys from scrolling down, and it's not like if we were forcing you guys in the discussion.

Anyway, I was thinking about all that discussion we had and all the stuff I read at Uni about science vs philosophy... And I guess there is a little something I got wrong. Nothing can be a hundred percent objective in music, cause arts and music are created by human beings. The fact that these things are our creations just prevents it from having any natural laws, therefore, there is no real way to measure quality in arts, since it's just another criteria, also made up by human beings...

There is no true objectivity... What I'm actually talking about should be called a consensual agreement on what quality is in music... or em... I don't know, I still have a few problems with the english language... can't seem to find the proper words. Maybe you guys would have a better word or expression to fit what I'm talking about.

Just to go back to my examples, I can't see anyone on Earth saying Mozart, Keith Jarreth or Opeth are not good artists (I may agree that some of their work could be bad). But in general terms, these three artists (or band) all have some pretty decent songwritting in their own genre. I wouldn't say the same for artists like Katy Perry though.

Btw Denta, I'm studying Kant for one of my classes :P And I understand why you compared my opinions to his work. But I'm not trying to establish a scientific quality measurement method for music. As I said before, it is impossible to do, because arts is a creation of men...