At 4/13/05 03:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote: a thesis

Check your email.

At 4/13/05 03:23 PM, gfoxcook wrote: I didn't think it was that big a deal either, but apparently you, me, Recon, and Mystboy are in the minority.

I guess it seems that way. Though i do think Alk gaetting in is somewhat undeserving, i do not think it is a big deal worth all this fuss.

At 4/13/05 03:28 PM, gfoxcook wrote: How can his insane post be "well put and spot-on" if you agree with me that he (and others) are getting a little too worked up?

Well, what i meant is that his arguments were just and correct at most, but what i agreed with you is that he and others are far too worked up. What i was trying to express is that he could have approached his arguments from a more solution-like stance, than a complaining one.

You just pegged a possible solution, and something MUCH MORE FUCKING IMPORTANT than making a separate "veterans list" and "active list" thing:

Woah, you are starting to get worked up. : P Do CAPS mean yelling? Or am i confused. I was just throwing out random ideas hoping one would catch. I only skimmed through other posts (didnt read them all thoroughly) so sorry if someone already suggested it and it was declined.

"Or, maybe only active users should be able to vote, but the list stays in tact."

THIS is something I'm willing to discuss, and if Recon and/or spancker are as well, then perhaps we'll consider it. But how to go about determining who should be e-mailed and who shouldn't be is a whole new bag of thorns.

Well, maybe a comittee of you three can simply be the judges of who is active, and when one wants to leave (no longer be active themselves) they can elect someone to take their position on the 'committee'. Just an idea. Maybe something to work with. Though that makes things complicated... at least it makes it fair. I think. And for someone to be claimed 'inactive' all three must agree. As long as the three are mature, there should not be argument if one does not agree with the other two.

Another thing, and not just to RC, but it really is too late. Alk and SK made it on the list. And I feel sorry that for them that some don't believe one or the other belongs on the list. If I was one of them, I would hate reading this thread.

No kidding. Well said.

Thanks.

At 4/13/05 03:29 PM, gfoxcook wrote: The list is ALREADY the hall of fame. I'm going to add in "inactive" and "retired" markers right now, though.

This is kind of along the lines of what I meant before.

Wi/Ht? ID ... NG date .. Wi/Ht? date .. user ID .. NG username

Well, if that is fair enough then all is well, but I have a feeling that this isn't quite over yet, sadly. It really should never have been brought up in the fashion it was. I myself don't agree fully with the choices, but people should have just accepted it in the first place and notioned the problems/solutions of/for the list more discretely.

This whole drama was a great thing for the Member list! It seems to have been the catalyst for reform, and I'm glad to see that gfox made the changes that he did. To have users like Dobio and Macdeth on the list was undermining it, but now that's been sorted. Hopefully we can all move on, stop shouting at each other, and look forward to the June elections :)

At 4/13/05 07:38 PM, Eldarion wrote: Best paragraph since the election...

Now that i think of it that way, it may have been a positive in the end, but I still think it could have been just as good a turn out in the end without all the problems. Anyway, i always did like you. Way to turn a negative into a positive... i could not have siad it better myself.

At 4/11/05 12:53 AM, Master_Inuyasha wrote:

At 4/11/05 12:24 AM, ReconRebel wrote: So much for keeping things confidential.

I think Bouns looked at the member list, and checked all the inactive members VS the active ones, and came up with that number. In theory that is. :/

Either that or he was tipped off by another Wi/Ht? member Master_Inuyasha. I don't believe BonusStage came up with that number through analysis.

At 4/11/05 07:49 AM, _lightning_ wrote: You people this this all way to seriously . :P

Hey _lightning_, you didn't miss a deposit did you? I think I did (my memory is a little fuzzy) and our experience is still tied.

... and I received your e-mail.

At 4/11/05 12:13 PM, gfoxcook wrote:

At 4/9/05 07:01 PM, ReconRebel wrote: Exactly gfox, and in the event of a tie the only fair way to decide would be by sign-up date.

Sign-up date would work as a tie-breaker, yeah. So SK would have been it either way, eh?

"Eh?" right back at you gfox. Didn't you get the election results I sent everyone?

This is, of course, assuming we ever have 2-at-once elections again. I haven't decided what to do on my b-day. Either #24 will be elected or #24 AND #25 will be.

Well I hope you have a blast because all the bickering in here has turned my stomach. I knew all the members didn't share the same opinions but I never thought it was this bad. Too harsh.

At 4/11/05 04:49 PM, BonusStage wrote:

At 4/11/05 12:24 AM, ReconRebel wrote: Gee, you really didn't realize how much this group was split down the middle do you? Why would Alkador IM the guy when _redruM_ was one of the RPG members who voted him out of the club?

Since i never knew about that whole escapade of his before this vote in, sooorrryy :\

Forget it BonusStage. I wasn't aware that _redruM_ stuck up for Alkador like that.

Two guesses who the other two were.

You and Fig

Nope. I actually quit the club on Alkador's behalf.

At 4/13/05 03:29 PM, gfoxcook wrote: Wi/Ht? #1 ... 12/22/01 .. 02/11/03 .. 251796 .. spancker (inactive)

Ack!! Does our leader know he's been put on inactive status?

Wi/Ht? #2 ... 10/05/02 .. 02/11/03 .. 376145 .. Drimarki [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #5 ... 06/10/01 .. 02/22/03 .. 174015 .. Transformers [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #13 . 07/07/02 .. 07/29/03 .. 332379 .. Dobio [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #16 . 03/29/01 .. 11/15/03 .. 145633 .. MacBeth- [RETIRED]

Interesting. I made a judgment call when sending out the voting reminders and you nailed the 4 members I didn't bother with.

At 4/13/05 03:58 PM, -Myst- wrote: I hope I'll learn things have calmed down ... now I'm out of this whole thing. I don't think I'm a major player in this board anyway.

You look like an active member to me -Myst-.

At 4/13/05 07:38 PM, Eldarion wrote: This whole drama was a great thing for the Member list!

Heh, you got that right Eldarion. Nothing like a good disagreement to get the soap opera started.

Was the list of regulars discontinued?

At 4/13/05 09:19 PM, Nike_Dunk wrote: Was the list of regulars discontinued?

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic.php?id=163600&page=41

Nope, it's still active. You are just in the wrong topic.

What? e-drama over all ready? :)

At 4/13/05 09:10 PM, ReconRebel wrote:

At 4/11/05 07:49 AM, _lightning_ wrote: You people this this all way to seriously . :P

Hey _lightning_, you didn't miss a deposit did you? I think I did (my memory is a little fuzzy) and our experience is still tied.

Course i didn't. ;)

I say this for now:

I'll be happy when the Members list runs exactly the same as the Regulars list.

..and I'll write a response to you, Greg, when I feel better, because the stuff you pulled was fucking rude.

At 4/13/05 09:19 PM, Nike_Dunk wrote: Was the list of regulars discontinued?

No, that was an April Fools joke that was false. I just had to inform you of this because I felt that I was the one that said it.

Eh, I don't really want to comment on this whole issue. I will say that I have read every single word in here and well, I agree with some points and disagree with others. I just feel very awkward that I am the centre of discussion in here (As you said Myst_Williams). Anyway, I'm sure that everything will be sorted as most matters have been addressed as I have seen and yeah, I'm lost for words.

At 4/14/05 05:16 AM, RedCircle wrote: I say this for now:

I'll be happy when the Members list runs exactly the same as the Regulars list.

..and I'll write a response to you, Greg, when I feel better, because the stuff you pulled was fucking rude.

For fuck's sake, stop the bloody in-fighting. It's stretched onto five pages now. When the election of new members creates 100+ posts of flames, between people who you'd think would be above that by definition, it makes you wonder why you associate with the place at all. It's petty and fucking pathetic.

I see no reason to continue to associate myself with this club. Leave my name on the list for historical purposes if you like, but I'm not taking an active part in this any more.

At 4/14/05 05:37 AM, jonthomson wrote: For fuck's sake, stop the bloody in-fighting.

Why single me out? Why do you have to dump that on me?

In my original post, I expressed an opinion that wasn't directly attacking a single person.

I post about my discontent once (not even to you), and you get all snappy? Explain to me please? I'm willing to listen.

=)

It's stretched onto five pages now.

This whole 5 page rant is about solving problems. It's about the future of the Memberlist and it's purpose. We are trying to come to an agreement.

When the election of new members creates 100+ posts of flames, between people who you'd think would be above that by definition, it makes you wonder why you associate with the place at all.

No........it makes you wonder what caused the flames.

I see no reason to continue to associate myself with this club.

Man, all because of my post? I'm....stunned, Jon. =P

Leave my name on the list for historical purposes if you like, but I'm not taking an active part in this any more.

Dude, get on AIM sometime. I'd like to talk anyway.
_____________________

After reading all the posts in here, it can get quite cloudy. There is a reason why there is so much talk, and now that we have all found out that the Members views are split down the middle, we might want to exchange some e-mails about it.

Problem is, I don't have everyone's e-mail addresses. Maybe all the Members should communicate to each other about things like this privately. "These things" being solutions to the list, and how it will run.

At 4/13/05 03:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote: B) why didn't you and Denvish campaign for him as strongly BEFORE the election as you are doing now AFTER the election when it's too late for Mazza to have been elected instead of Alkador?

I guess it's becuse i was comfortable, in thining he would make the list....and a campaign wasn't relly nesisary for him to be elected.

MAYBE WE'RE ALL OUT OF FUCKING TOUCH WITH THE NON-MEMBERS. Guess what? The only way to fix that reliably is by inducting new members who ARE IN TOUCH and will stick around and will then VOTE IN LATER ELECTIONS.

I completely agree with you gfox, the list of members is looking dated at the moment, mainly due to the slow election process, and also due to alot of the older members becoming inactive over the months and years.

At 4/13/05 03:26 PM, gfoxcook wrote: Myst_Williams is about as new to Wi/Ht? as Alkador is, so I don't know why you're suggesting him. I suspect something similar to this furor over Alkador would have happened if M_W had been elected instead of him.

I comletely agree with you here M_W, came along at more or less the exact same time as Alkador, along with Bahmut7 it think.

At 4/13/05 03:28 PM, gfoxcook wrote: Most well written post EVER? ...

Don't get gelouse now gfox : )

In your opinion it's not long enough. This may surprise you, but I was only on Wi/Ht? for 1 month or so when spancker added me to its membership. I don't get where you people think there are some sort of hard, restrictive requirements that either SHOULD be or ARE applied to Wi/Ht? membership.

That does suprise me, but it wouldn't suprise me if i was told that you were as informative as alot of the members at that point, you are one of the best posters, and helpers in this forum, so im sure that attitude was why delay the inevitable.

At 4/14/05 05:16 AM, RedCircle wrote: I'll be happy when the Members list runs exactly the same as the Regulars list.

I agree with you there RC, the regulars list seem to work exreamly well. This way you guys can get rid of all those inactives then if this kind of situation arises again, the user in question could simply be kicked when appropriate.

At 4/13/05 03:26 PM, gfoxcook wrote: Myst_Williams is about as new to Wi/Ht? as Alkador is, so I don't know why you're suggesting him. I suspect something similar to this furor over Alkador would have happened if M_W had been elected instead of him.

This is true, if i was elected it probably would have been the same mellowdrama.

At 4/14/05 05:27 AM, Alkador wrote: I just feel very awkward that I am the centre of discussion in here (As you said Myst_Williams). Anyway, I'm sure that everything will be sorted as most matters have been addressed as I have seen and yeah, I'm lost for words.

Ya, i'm sorry for you that this all went haywire... some of the comments you didn't deserve, but in the end.. all i have to say is congrats!

At 4/13/05 03:26 PM, gfoxcook wrote: But let me just say that I find it disturbing how you refer to the election of a fellow human being into our little grouping as a "problem." Just because you disagree with it. That's SCARY talk.

No, I'm saying it has become a problem, because many people disagree with it. Anyway, don't focus too much on my wording there. Perhaps 'debate' or 'controversy' would have been better words. The real 'problem' I was referring to is that this has turned into such a big mess.

At 4/14/05 06:11 PM, BonusStage wrote: threats of two members just wanting to leave completely, and more just complaining about all the fires started...

I noticed jon recently removed the Wi/Ht? tag from his sig but this didn't come as a surprise to me. Who is the second member you speak of BonusStage?

Three more beating-a-should-be-dead-horse posts to try and get this whole thing resolved or at least closer to resolution, so we can move on and start actually fixing any election problems and getting ready for the June elections instead of dwelling on the PAST elections alone.

At 4/13/05 03:58 PM, -Myst- wrote: Great god, I thought this crap would never end.

It ends when it ends. What can I say... I think my six-post reply-a-thon said MOST of what I needed to say, but of course there have been posted in here SINCE then, and I'm not going to ignore them or hope they go away. :::shrugs:::

Ok guys, just take a deep breath and read gfox's post. You probably won't agree with most of what he said, but that's ok.

Sure it's okay. But I'd like people, more than anything else, to realise and RECOGNISE the difference between the list I created this topic for and the Wi/Ht? membership as a whole. They are NOT THE SAME THING, but so many people (including those who agree with me about the Alkador thing being not such a big deal) keep referring to the list as though it IS the membership. I'm tired of that shit. That's the main thing I'm tired of. I'd rather hear how undeserving Alkador is of being in this group TEN TIMES than hear people confuse my listing of the members as the SAME THING AS THE MEMBERSHIP one more time. Christ.

Now look back at what everyone posted and think about it. You don't think this situation has gone a little too far?

Understatement alert! #;-}>

If this memberlist is so unworthy, then why doing such a big deal with the nomination of its members? Yelling and getting all screwed up won't do any good, it never did.

No, but people keeping quiet because they'd rather not "rock the boat" isn't great, either. If people have problems with something about the Wi/Ht? membership (as opposed to the memberLIST, that is), whether they're members or not, I'd rather hear it than be in the dark... I just wish that people would relax about such a little thing (IMO) as Alkador being added to the membership instead of Mazza. It seems to just drive people crazy. For the fourth time in the past few days, there have been MULTIPLE elections where I wanted to see Toocool elected in (either along with the person who ended up getting elected or alongside that person), and that's with no disrespect to the other people, it's just the way I felt.

So yeah, I would have liked some elections to go different ways. But I didn't turn this topic into a flamewar at those who didn't vote for Toocool when they DIDN'T go my way.

I hope I'll learn things have calmed down ... now I'm out of this whole thing. I don't think I'm a major player in this board anyway.

When I first read this post of yours, I thought you just meant you were out of this argument, out of this topic, and you didn't think your opinion mattered that much to some people who don't think you're around often or something. But upon reading it a second time, I'm wondering if, like jonthomson, you're actually saying you're a retired member now. Please let me know which you meant (if you read this, that is)...

At 4/13/05 04:14 PM, Denvish wrote: Well, I had a massive multi-quote reply ready to post, but changed my mind,

On the one hand, I'm a curious person, and I would have liked to see what you had to say. But my rational side says that's probably the better move, yes. One person spamming up page 23 with huge multi-quote replying (that'd be me) was probably enough. #;-}>

as I agree that it should be left up to the Members to come to some kind of arrangement regarding future elections.

And we will do so either in this topic or by e-mail. I suspect that for the purposes of this next election, I will be:

1) spelling out the qualities voters should be looking for in choosing someone(s) for induction...
2) providing people with a list of nominees that we can all agree should be considered for membership...
3) telling voters who haven't been around recently to either abstain from voting or to educate themselves by reading some recent threads or talking to more active members about the possible new members they'll be voting for rather than just randomly voting for someone they like
... and/or
4) not e-mailing the super-inactive members to ask for their votes in the first place.

That's some of the stuff we have to consider as options right now, and none of them are mutually exclusive.

I've said pretty much everything I've wanted to say on the subject, and seemingly raised a few valid questions.

That you did. And I do appreciate the manner in which you did so, BTW.

I just want to state that my initial congratulations to both Alkador and SK still stand, I like and respect both of them, and there's no question in my mind that they should remain on the list.

I just wish that everyone would realise that THAT is the essence at the base of all this insanity, and that there's nothing worth getting worked up over, or starting flamewars about, because if there's a problem with the election process, it's a very MINOR thing in the grand scheme of things.

So let's allow the dust to settle and the air to clear.... people have all made their points I believe, so I'm in favour of backing off and letting this thread rest for a while.

It's up to each person to decide, but if you've already said all you needed to say, then feel free to lurk in here and not worry about making new points, sure. That will cut down on the traffic, for one thing. I'd love to see this thing drop off the front page of Wi/Ht?, which is where it belongs when an election isn't going on.

At 4/13/05 05:11 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: Well, what i meant is that his arguments were just and correct at most, but what i agreed with you is that he and others are far too worked up.

Ahh. Well, that's a different matter than what I thought you were saying.

Woah, you are starting to get worked up. : P Do CAPS mean yelling? Or am i confused.

Caps means emphasis. Like boldface or italics. Just easier to type quickly without having to use HTML. No one should be taking me all-capping at them in my huge multi-quote replies as me being angry at THEM specifically. I was trying to make points, trying to emphasise that this whole thing is insane, and trying to shoot down some invalid-in-my-opinion stuff.

Well, maybe a comittee of you three can simply be the judges of who is active, and when one wants to leave (no longer be active themselves) they can elect someone to take their position on the 'committee'. Just an idea. Maybe something to work with. Though that makes things complicated... at least it makes it fair. I think. And for someone to be claimed 'inactive' all three must agree. As long as the three are mature, there should not be argument if one does not agree with the other two.

We'll see. Either something like that, OR... the person running the current election decides. That's simpler, as it doesn't involve me and/or Recon having to try and get in touch with spancker, who so often is away from this forum for months at a time. But it's more arbitrary and perhaps less fair. For now, I'm still e-mailing everyone in the membership EVERY time I send out an e-mail to the whole group. Whether or not that's going to change will be decided by the June elections.

At 4/13/05 07:38 PM, Eldarion wrote: This whole drama was a great thing for the Member list! It seems to have been the catalyst for reform, and I'm glad to see that gfox made the changes that he did. To have users like Dobio and Macdeth on the list was undermining it, but now that's been sorted. Hopefully we can all move on, stop shouting at each other, and look forward to the June elections :)

You're one of the people I was referring to in the last post. Please note the following paragraph. It is not in all-caps to shout at you in particular, but it IS in all caps because I've said it in at least three posts in here in the past few pages, yet you (and others) still don't seem to grasp the message:

THE MEMBERLIST IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE MEMBERSHIP.

The list didn't need reform. I can't believe all you people thought that the list being the way it was... meant it was announcing "THESE 21/23 MEMBERS ARE ALL CURRENTLY SUPER-HELPFUL PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM AND DESERVE TO BE RECOGNISED AS GODS AMONG MEN!!!!!" WHERE does it say that? Please tell me where it says that. It's not supposed to SAY that, it's not supposed to MEAN that... it NEVER was.

Whether or not Dobio and Macbeth have "[RETIRED]" next to their names on the list has NOTHING to do with how the membership is run and how elections are run. It just has to do with some of the seemingly-insecure regulars of this forum feeling self-satisfied about how they're more active than a few members of this group. Christ, people....

We CANNOT predict the future behaviour of people before we vote them into this list. If we elected ANY OF YOU into it, you'd be perfectly free and able to ditch us one month later AND NEVER COME BACK TO WI/HT?. Would you really want us to try and police-in-advance the membership and make sure we didn't elect you in the first place? I doubt many of you would say that.

And those of you who would? Well, I'd be happy to oblige, but we can't see the future.

At 4/13/05 09:10 PM, ReconRebel wrote: "Eh?" right back at you gfox. Didn't you get the election results I sent everyone?

I meant that SK would have been #22 instead of #23 whether or not he received more votes than Alkador (which he did) or the same amount of votes as Alkador (which he didn't, but was possible) due to you using sign-up date as a tiebreaker.

IOW, I was just restating what you said to be clear on it, that's all. O_o

Well I hope you have a blast because all the bickering in here has turned my stomach. I knew all the members didn't share the same opinions but I never thought it was this bad. Too harsh.

Oh yeah. This is a REAL blast....

Anyway, I'm sure actually conducting the next election will be a lot more fun than the aftermath of THIS election, so don't worry about me.

At 4/13/05 03:29 PM, gfoxcook wrote: spancker (inactive)

Ack!! Does our leader know he's been put on inactive status?

Heh. I dunno. He's inactive, so I doubt he's noticed yet. Am I right or am I right? #;-}>

Drimarki [RETIRED]
Transformers [RETIRED]
Dobio [RETIRED]
MacBeth- [RETIRED]

Interesting. I made a judgment call when sending out the voting reminders and you nailed the 4 members I didn't bother with.

Then I pegged them exactly. Glad to hear that. Speaking of those four members, though:

IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO ALL ABOUT THE NEW FORMAT OF THE LIST:

The four of them are all [RETIRED] on the list now simply because they don't come here anymore. Well, Drimarki hasn't in over two years, TF has been here since then but not often and not for long. Dobio made it clear that he joined our group just to join it and doesn't really care all that much. Ever since his top posters list thread ended he hasn't been around much, so... yeah. And Macbeth has been MIA for quite some time.

The reason I say all that is to make it clear that the reason those four are listed that way is DIFFERENT than the reason the fifth [RETIRED] member is. jonthomson has REQUESTED he only be on the list for historical purposes, has removed his Wi/Ht? affiliation from his sig, and doesn't wish to be associated with the group any longer due to the madness in this topic. As a result, he will now be listed as retired as well. Just please note that his is by request rather than by my (and apparently Recon's as well) judgement.

Perhaps I should put a little * next to his [RETIRED] to indicate that it was voluntary.

Oh, and I should mention right now that any of these retirees only need to ASK me to remove their [RETIRED] marker if they don't feel it's deserved any longer. If they aren't posting (say they ask me via e-mail), I will change it to (inactive) status. If they're posting on Wi/Ht?, I'll remove it completely.

At 4/14/05 05:16 AM, RedCircle wrote: I'll be happy when the Members list runs exactly the same as the Regulars list.

..and I'll write a response to you, Greg, when I feel better, because the stuff you pulled was fucking rude.

The stuff I "pulled," as you put it (and BTW, the word pulled often implies something that is not within my range of accepted behaviour, so... that's inaccurate since this is a topic I freaking created)... was to speak my mind, the same as you did, about this whole fucking mess. Whether or not it was rude is a subjective matter I won't bother to agree with OR deny.

But let me ask you this: Is it any less rude for you to tell me I should run a simple list of the members in a club the same way you run your Regulars list? This list is a simple, historical listing of the people who have been elected or appointed Wi/Ht? members and the dates on which that happened for each of us. It is a hall of fame for this forum, basically, and it is not supposed to be some holy fucking top 50 list or something. I don't take this list and the topic in which it is found as a stat-derived list topic.

Your RCVL topic, OTOH, is a topic much like Dogma's EGRL, my VP topic, my pentalist topic, jon's reviewers list topic, etc. etc. etc. It's a stat list topic with listings of... yes, stats! The only stats on this list are Wi/Ht? member #, signup date, and join date. That's not really a stat list to me.

So please, tell me why it should be forced to run exactly as your list runs? Because you say so isn't a valid reason.

If you just mean that people should be removed or added to the list in a regular monthly fashion, or in some way similar to the way your list is run, that's fine for you to think that, but I'm not going to change it to make you (in particular) happy. Just like you didn't have to take my suggestion about whether mods or members belonged on the regulars list back a few months ago for your list. Because... it's YOUR list!

Even if the Wi/Ht? membership DECIDED to vote people out like people can be voted out of the regulars list, I would simply put [OUTVOTED] instead of retired next to those people or something. The list isn't supposed to be of current, actively participating people. It's a list of the order in which we were Wi/Ht?ed, damnit! Your list is an apple to this list's orange. Your list has a listing of "retired regulars" underneath it, because you don't want to pull their data and leave them on the regulars list where they don't "belong" or whatever.

In contrast, there is nothing you can do (or NOT do) as a Wi/Ht? member that will make you NOT belong on this listing. The only way you don't get on this list is by not getting elected into the group in the first place.

Does this all become clear to you guys? Or do I have to keep rephrasing the same message another dozen times? This is incredible. I don't know whether some of you have just decided to not read my longassed posts in here, or whether you HAVE read them but just don't understand, but... it's maddening, in some ways, to not have my message received by so damned many of you. Here it is, one last time (I hope):

Member list = just a simple DESCRIPTIVE list of members and the days they were voted in, in the order they were voted in. That's all. It doesn't MEAN anything. It's not supposed to indicate we're all great, helpful, active people. Stop feeling that some people on it deserve it more than others, that's total bullshit. It's a listing of historical FACT (of who was voted in), not a listing of CURRENT MERIT.

At 4/14/05 06:17 AM, RedCircle wrote: Why single me out? Why do you have to dump that on me?

I'm pretty sure he was talking to both of us. You and I appear to be the main "in-fighters," and are probably the main source of jon's dismay.

This whole 5 page rant is about solving problems. It's about the future of the Memberlist and it's purpose. We are trying to come to an agreement.

The memberlist has no purpose but to chronicle the history of this group. See above post to you. No agreement about the LIST itself is needed. It is agreement about the Wi/Ht? membership and its ELECTIONS that is needed.

Is the semantical distinction clear to everyone now? I hope so.

Problem is, I don't have everyone's e-mail addresses. Maybe all the Members should communicate to each other about things like this privately. "These things" being solutions to the list, and how it will run.

I always e-mail all members of the group with the e-mail addresses in open view. It was after reading the above portion of your post that I remembered Recon doesn't do that, and that you were elected into the group on a Recon election and that only a single extra Recon-run election has happened since then, so... I attempted to remedy that lack of info (for you and SK and Alkador, as I'm pretty sure all the other members have seen the full e-mail list before) by e-mailing everyone yesterday.

As for conducting all these discussions (about how the ELECTIONS are run, BTW, not how the list is run... please stop saying that, for the love of lists! #;-}>) in private via e-mail.... when it comes to some things, perhaps. But people like Denvish will most likely bring up the whole "what reason is there behind the secrecy" issue again if it goes dead in here and all the discussions are happening behind closed doors.

I am personally quite content and happy with keeping ALL this shit out in public view. It doesn't bother me at all, as I have nothing to hide. Not that e-mail means you're trying to HIDE something... but it can often come across that way. Especially to people on this forum who haven't been voted into Wi/Ht? as of now.

At 4/14/05 11:00 AM, Tom_s00 wrote: I completely agree with you gfox, the list of members is looking dated at the moment, mainly due to the slow election process, and also due to alot of the older members becoming inactive over the months and years.

The list of members is SUPPOSED to look dated. It's over 2 years old. This group is 2.5 years old. It's an old group. It has old members that don't come around anymore. That doesn't mean they should be kicked off the list. Christ.

If Tom, and Eldarion, and RC, and all the other people who keep confusing the list in this topic with the Wi/Ht? membership itself... would please just accept that my listing in here is NOT THE MEMBERSHIP ITSELF, I could die a happy man. EDN.

Gfox we should just lock this thread and post the list some where on some site. Its just a simple list of names, it doesn't need any bitching about it or any other comments.

At 4/16/05 03:04 AM, _lightning_ wrote: Gfox we should just lock this thread and post the list some where on some site. Its just a simple list of names, it doesn't need any bitching about it or any other comments.

It doesn't need all the craziness, no... and it is indeed just a simple listing (thanks for being one of the few people to understand its purpose). AND... I wish that none of this had ever come up to begin with. I wish that no one had had a problem with Alkador getting elected. But some people did, so... this was the result.

A couple days ago, I was actually considering going to liljim and asking him to lock this thread, but my disgust with the thread's current state soon cooled. I'm only still posting because other people are still posting, and I'll be damned if I don't reply to things I see that need replyin' to, yanno? #;-}>

So... what you say is true, and we COULD do that... but for now this thread should remain open, IMO. For one thing, it's still the best place to discuss the upcoming election, changes to the elections, etc. etc. Level up! doesn't need that sort of off-topic spam. It's on-topic in this topic, it always has been.

...

HOWEVER, your idea of putting the memberlist on a webpage is quite brilliant. No more would there be debate about whether or not to post it on every page, no more would there be worries about how the BBS screws up the columns... GENIUS, man. #;-}> Thanks for the idea.

I'm doing the pentalist update in a few minutes so I'm already in a HTMLy mood. I'll just plop the memberlist into a table and upload it to my site. I might link to it in my sig if I can fit it in (as a link on the Wi/Ht? #9 part), but if not... well, it'd be neat if others could do that instead or as well. In any event, this is the URL it will be at in less than an hour, I'd say:

http://home.houston.rr.com/gfoxcook/WIHTlist.html

At 4/15/05 11:20 PM, gfoxcook wrote: THE MEMBERLIST IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE MEMBERSHIP.

I will never be on the memberlist or be a wi/ht member but reading all the drama was exicting.

Heh. I dunno. He's inactive, so I doubt he's noticed yet. Am I right or am I right? #;-}>

Joo are wrong.

Oh, and before someone says this:

Yes, I remember that Transformers (Jessica_) once had a Wi/Ht? site as well, but it was fairly minimal and I don't believe her memberlist was quite the same as mine, nor was it updated for as long as this one was... and obviously I forgot about it until reading lightning's suggestion just now.

Hence, while it's not a BRAND new idea, it's an idea that hasn't been around in awhile, and it's a good idea for right NOW, methinks.

Anyway, took a bit longer to code (ahhh, HTML by hand (well, and by WordPad's find/replace and Excel's fill-down/copy functions, as well)) than I was expecting, but it's done so I can get to the PentaList updating now. Again, here is the new web version of the Wi/Ht? memberlist. No more needing to post it on every page in here. Woot woot!

http://home.houston.rr.com/gfoxcook/WIHTlist.html

The new updated list looks really good gfox, im glad all these issues have been resolved finally.

At 4/15/05 11:25 PM, gfoxcook wrote: If Tom, and Eldarion, and RC, and all the other people who keep confusing the list in this topic with the Wi/Ht? membership itself... would please just accept that my listing in here is NOT THE MEMBERSHIP ITSELF, I could die a happy man. EDN.

Firstly, all four of those new practices for the next election look great, and I can tell you that I like them more than this precognitive election method you seem to think I (and others) wanted!

As for the distinction between Membership and the Memberlist, I thought the two terms were interchangable. Now I understand. Thanks for taking the time to explain it (again), Greg.

At 4/16/05 06:41 AM, gfoxcook wrote: http://home.houston.rr.com/gfoxcook/WIHTlist.html

Looking good :)

Well, I'm glad things have calmed down a little around! Now that everyone understand the list's purpose, I guess we should be able to avoid this kind of problem in the future.

At 4/15/05 11:12 PM, gfoxcook wrote: When I first read this post of yours, I thought you just meant you were out of this argument, out of this topic, and you didn't think your opinion mattered that much to some people who don't think you're around often or something. But upon reading it a second time, I'm wondering if, like jonthomson, you're actually saying you're a retired member now. Please let me know which you meant (if you read this, that is)...

Your first thought was perfectly accurate. I'm sorry if it did bother you.

I'd still like to be a member (in the far far future) but over the next few months dont count me out if i dont post much... I got in trouble at school (acidemic probation) and my mom took away the internet basically till school is over... I'll try to post as much as possible but its going to be hard...

At 4/15/05 11:20 PM, gfoxcook wrote:

At 4/13/05 05:11 PM, Myst_Williams wrote:

Sorry i did not reply sooner. I went to once, but my comp siezed up and i lost everything i typed. I was too pissed to start over, and since then i forgot about your post until i saw the thread again today.

Well, what i meant is that his arguments were just and correct at most, but what i agreed with you is that he and others are far too worked up.

Ahh. Well, that's a different matter than what I thought you were saying.

Oh, i see. Well, I felt some of Rc's arguments were just, but some were out of hand, and a lot of people were too worked up. That was my point of view. However, i love Alk, and he deserves it in my mind - maybe his time came a little too soon for some people to handle. There are others who deserve it before him for sure.

Caps means emphasis. Like boldface or italics. Just easier to type quickly without having to use HTML. No one should be taking me all-capping at them in my huge multi-quote replies as me being angry at THEM specifically. I was trying to make points, trying to emphasise that this whole thing is insane, and trying to shoot down some invalid-in-my-opinion stuff.

Oh, okay. Sorry about the misunderstanding. That is why i asked, because what you were saying didn't seem like it was in an argumentive mood, but you still capsed. THANKS for clearing that up for me. : )

Anyway, i read your posts and am glad to see a lot of issues resolvewd. All's well, ends well.

Hey:
I am new to this site....and have been searching for days on end to find out how to make a flash cartoon or flash game......I am very interested, and it bugs me alot when I strive to find it but have no luck.....somebuddy, plz help me to find something, if not anything that will be able to make flash cartoons and/or games!
Thanx

At 4/14/05 08:25 PM, ReconRebel wrote:

At 4/14/05 06:11 PM, BonusStage wrote: threats of two members just wanting to leave completely, and more just complaining about all the fires started...

I noticed jon recently removed the Wi/Ht? tag from his sig but this didn't come as a surprise to me. Who is the second member you speak of BonusStage?

anger causes problems.