At 4/11/05 09:33 AM, Denvish wrote: I really do think that -Mazza- has done more than enough for the Wi/Ht forum to be deserving of membership; I'm constantly impressed with his replies and quick finding of requested movies/games.

I said the exact same thing to Eldarion last night. He may not be the most conulsive poster in some of the threads, but i have no doubt that Mazza is probably the best question answerer in the wi/ht.

At 4/11/05 12:13 PM, gfoxcook wrote: 2 members at once is actually how I LIKE it to be, but many other members like to go with one at a time, so I defer to their judgement. But take a look at this period of time in Wi/Ht? history:

Funny you should say that, about a month ago iwas looking at the elcetion dates etc, and i thought the same thing ! i decided to do a little reserch into the LUL, and i came across the pages they were selected (didn't have elections back then as you will know) and both were accepted on the same page of the LUL ! I suppose the wi/ht was more willing to take on members being a smaller club back then.

Would I rather be member #22 or 23? Well, 22. But not because it's earlier, because it's an even number. (see my 36 vs 37 April Fools Thread for more on that).

Thats crazy dude, obsesive....

Alt-accounts on NG have nothing to do with the votes, though, because the votes are done by e-mail.

Duelly noted, my mistake : s

At 4/11/05 12:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote: Well, I hate to be an obvious-pointer-outer, but if you really would like to know the vote results details... and you'd really like to be able to help people like Mazza get in... then you COULD simply allow us to vote you into our august organisation. #;-}> Seriously, man, if you do decide to change your mind about wanting to remain a freelance Wi/Ht?er, let me know prior to the election in late June, okay?

Although I appreciate the (implied) compliment, I'm really not interested. I spend a lot of time in Wi/Ht, as you know, and the fact that -Mazza- didn't get in (despite IMO being the most consistently helpful of ALL Regulars and Members) is yet another reason for me to think that the Member elections are seriously flawed.
Even if I was a Member, I have a feeling my votes wouldn't have made a great deal of difference anyway. No offence to Alk or SK, but even with the occasional reappearance of several of the old crew, I still don't think the majority of them are in touch with what happens on a daily basis in this forum. Yes, the bias may change with the election of more regular members; but you're only around a couple of days a week, as is Recon; and some of the others are even more infrequent.

I dunno. Being part of the group just doesn't appeal to me at all.

As for the election votes, is there any particular reason why they're kept secret after new members have been elected?

At 4/11/05 09:23 AM, -Myst- wrote: Even if he wrote it wrong, he posted the wisest comment of the whole page. Bonus and redrum, just relax, don't get upset about someone else's nomination, because no matter if you or anyone else would've deserved it better, this club isn't worth people being angry at each other.

I think I gave the wrong impressioin. I'm really much more laid back than this thing has led some of you to think. As I said, I was only stating an opinion. If BonusStage hadn't posted his, I probably wouldn't have bothered. But he did, and I wanted him to know that I, for one, could see where he was coming from. I knew people would probably single him out and I didn't want that to happen, because I felt he had a good point. That's it. I was not hoping to have the decision changed, I was just agreeing with how Bonus said it was odd that Alkador was voted in. Recon seemed to take it much more seriously than I did. As you'll notice, I didn't attack Alkador or anyone else in my post, I simply said what I had observed.

At 4/11/05 12:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote:

Wise as always. Perhaps part of the problem did come from comparing Alkador to ShittyKitty.

In any event, this is overdue. Congratulations and welcome to the club, ShittyKitty and Alkador.

I agree with denvish and I know what I'm talking about. My bad ...

I am away for one weekend and i miss all this. Well, i don't care who got in and how. It really is not a big deal, i just want to give my congrats to SK and Alk. I think they are both helpful and good members of NG and are suitable for the placement. Damn Alk though for making both lists all at once and i havn't made even one. heh. : P

Anyway, Congrats to both of you!

Does any one know if Rebel ever checks his email? >_<

I am officially pissed off!

First off, I like Alkador. He's a wonderful person and a good friend. I hope you all know to separate my friendship with Alkador with my opinion that he is not qualified to be the next Member. I'm sure that in a little bit of time, he'll actually DESERVE the title of Wi/Ht Member, because he is helpful and a good person.

I'm gonna break this down in parts so that it's easier to swallow.

Alkador as a new Member

Alkador should NOT be a Member now. Why? Because he hasn't put his time in the forum like so many other people have. Are you all seriously blind or something? Have you even read shit in here in the last few months? Oh wait...half of the members haven't, cause they are MIA. That part royally pisses me off too, but I'll talk about that in a second.

Why didn't we elect Tom_s00, Mazza, EKRegulus, Denvish, Yoink_VineS, carmelhadinosaur, BonusStage, or Kiba? Those are just some of the people who are more qualified than Alkador. They have been ten times more active than Alkador, and you all just overlook them? It's sickening.

Why is this election so important to me?

Because if people get in who don't deserve to get in, then it DEFEATS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF HAVING THIS LIST. Hello??????????????? Hey, why don't we just elect Goldencat or GeorgeTopouria next election?

The real reason? I'd rather not be a part of a list that contains two things. 1. People who don't belong there. 2. People who aren't even bothering to look at the people they are voting for.

The REAL Problem

The real problem is the way this Memberlist is set up. We still have macdeth on here. We still have Dobio on here. We still have Drimarki on here...and like 10 other inactive people as well. It's time for a change. Why can't we set up something that "retires" or "hall-of-fames" inactive people? Instead of DISMISSING people's opinions, can't we all come to an agreement? Obviously, there is a problem, and it might be a good idea to handle it before it get's out of control.

"Hey buddy, I know you haven't been to Newgrounds for 2 years, but cast your votes!" There's a problem with this.

We have the MemberList because these people have dedicated a LOT of time to the forum. These people are the most dedicated people of Where is/How to. Don't you think that when someone is elected, everyone should agree? I mean, wake up! People are not happy. You simply cannot just dismiss those opinions. It's fucking rude.

Quote time! Oh joy!

At 4/10/05 09:20 AM, Eldarion wrote: I'm shocked about Alkador though, never thought he was a favourite. Alky, I thought you wouldn't be considered, since you only got regularship a few days ago...

Read that.

At 4/10/05 01:11 PM, BonusStage wrote: But Alk did also and that's garbage, it honestly is, the boy is around for what 2 months :\, posts a nice little story, hip hip horray, and does a congrats list like 70% of regular congratulators, and he gets it.

Read that.

At 4/10/05 01:54 PM, _redruM_ wrote: I have to agree. Alkador regularly posted a little story to entertain the other members and that's just fine, but I don't recall a simple story being part of the criteria for becoming a Wi/Ht member.

Read that.

At 4/11/05 09:33 AM, Denvish wrote: I really do think that -Mazza- has done more than enough for the Wi/Ht forum to be deserving of membership; I'm constantly impressed with his replies and quick finding of requested movies/games.

Read that.

You don't think there's...um...a PROBLEM do you?
__________________

I'm still sick and tired, so I'll post more later.

At 4/11/05 07:49 AM, _lightning_ wrote: You people this this all way to seriously . :P

Yeah. We're taking this way too seriously. We should go and vote in any random schmoe who doesn't deserve the title in the slightest. I think Stamper would be a great addition. Who cares? Let's just lay back and smoke a bud. Chill out. The club means nothing.

You forgot your "HA HA! INTERNET!" picture.

At 4/11/05 09:21 AM, Tom_s00 wrote: there is simply speculation, of the methods Alkador used to gain membership to the wi/ht club.

And that alone should be enough to take this whole thing seriously. We have NEVER seen this level of discontent over an election before. Accusations of despicable methods to ensure election, frustration over an undeserving member. The simple fact this came up should mean it's looked into.

The Wi/Ht community is NOT filled with malicious, selfish, insensible individuals. When an issue arises that gets so many people ticked off, there MUST be something behind it to get those people to speak up. If it wasn't important to them, this wouldn't have come up in the first place.

At 4/11/05 09:23 AM, -Myst- wrote: this club isn't worth people being angry at each other.

You are SO blind. There has been anger and tension between members for a LONG time.

What do you know, anyway? Seriously, nearly every one of your posts in the LUL is praise for Alkador's story. Get your cock out of his ass if you want to be taken seriously.

At 4/11/05 12:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote: So everyone's going to pale in comparison to SK in that respect, eh?

And the person who should be elected is the one who pales LEAST, NOT the one who pales most.

I would hope that most of us Wi/Ht?ers would treat election into this membership a bit more seriously than a lame talent show or attention-whorey popularity contest.

That's all I'm seeing at the moment. Apparently we're not supposed to voice our concerns about it.

Can't we all just relax and realise that "what it takes" to be elected into Wi/Ht? has changed over the years and that it's not a perfect science?

Sure gfoxcook. Let's change the club's name to "Where is/How to Write a Story Club" while we're at it.

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote: Alkador should NOT be a Member now. Why? Because he hasn't put his time in the forum like so many other people have. Are you all seriously blind or something? Have you even read shit in here in the last few months?

Why didn't we elect Tom_s00, Mazza, EKRegulus, Denvish, Yoink_VineS, carmelhadinosaur, BonusStage, or Kiba? Those are just some of the people who are more qualified than Alkador. They have been ten times more active than Alkador, and you all just overlook them? It's sickening.

if people get in who don't deserve to get in, then it DEFEATS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF HAVING THIS LIST. Hello??????????????? Hey, why don't we just elect Goldencat or GeorgeTopouria next election?

The real reason? I'd rather not be a part of a list that contains two things. 1. People who don't belong there. 2. People who aren't even bothering to look at the people they are voting for.

Exactly what I was thinking, put better than I could have.

You don't think there's...um...a PROBLEM do you?

Nawww... course not. We're all just playing around. > 8 (

My bottom line is this: Alkador has contributed to the community, I'll give him that. However, last time I checked, the Wi/Ht club was for well-established members who helped excessively. Alkador is still new around here (in respects to the competition) and DEFINITELY hasn't been the most helpful of the hopefuls. He is the MOST undeserving of the position and everyone who voted for him should seriously reconsider their criteria.

It's disgraceful.

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote:

Hey, why don't we just elect Goldencat or GeorgeTopouria next election?

Don't even joke about the likes of that :-)

As far as all the hoohah, I don't really care as I didn't vote for either of them. No disrespect to SK or Alkador, I thought there were better candidates. But a majority of active members voted them in. That should be the end of it. If you don't like it, meh.

Well, at least BonusStage and I aren't alone anymore. Maybe RedCircle is right, and there is a problem with the way things are currently working. Or perhaps this is an isolated incident, as I can never remember this much objection in any previous election. I wish I knew who voted for you, it would make it easier to see where this problem came from. Did inactive members get the email, then browse the LUL, see a bunch of Alkador posts and decide to vote for him? That seems unlikely, but something does seem to have gone wrong here.

At 4/12/05 06:24 AM, jonthomson wrote: As far as all the hoohah, I don't really care as I didn't vote for either of them.

Heh, I was wondering if there was anyone who DIDN'T vote for SK. I have a massive deal of respect for Josh, but he should have been elected during the time of his MASSIVE Wi/Ht involvement last summer & autumn. Once he got admin at Retrogade, his activity level dropped drastically here, and I'm sure school didn't help much either. I'm not saying he's not still a worthy Regular, or that he's an undeserving Member, but his election to the group came 9+ months later than it should have, IMO.

All this drama is fascinating to watch, though. I'm intrigued by it all, and am watching with bated breath. I just hope issues can be resolved peacefully, without people developing personal vendettas.

At 4/12/05 09:34 AM, _redruM_ wrote: Well, at least BonusStage and I aren't alone anymore. Maybe RedCircle is right, and there is a problem with the way things are currently working.

Yes - there is. If so many people are saying it. And bringing up good points there is something wrong.

Or perhaps this is an isolated incident, as I can never remember this much objection in any previous election...., but something does seem to have gone wrong here.

If someone waves the flag enough *cough* AnzRage *cough* they will be noticed and accepted. Theres nothing wrong with that. Some poeple just don't wave their flags 'enough' in comparison. I hope the argument is an isolated event as well.

At 4/12/05 09:48 AM, Denvish wrote: All this drama is fascinating to watch, though. I'm intrigued by it all, and am watching with bated breath. I just hope issues can be resolved peacefully, without people developing personal vendettas.

I'm watching now too. Most interesting indeed. When I first came to these forums I was impressed I wanted to join the club - naturally I wasn't eligible. But now, I think I'll be content comming into the forum and helping in my own style.

Of course I'm not a member and would't know what I'm taking about...

wooah, so much drama and arguing in this topic WITHOUT ME :(( I missed the fun. Oh well, it's time to spice the debate.

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote: Why didn't we elect Tom_s00, Mazza, EKRegulus, Denvish, Yoink_VineS, carmelhadinosaur, BonusStage, or Kiba?

I honestly think that Denvish, carmel and Mazza are underrated. All of them are very helpful.

Those are just some of the people who are more qualified than Alkador. They have been ten times more active than Alkador, and you all just overlook them? It's sickening.

Good thing that they overlooked me. I was always overrated in the wi/ht? regulars voting process, I gained some votes just because I was an older and active regular. SCD's thoughts were kinda justified, there were better regulars than me that are still off the list.

So I shouldn't even be considered in the voting process for the members' list because most candidates are much better than me as helpful wi/ht? posters. Being very active for a long time is obviously not enough and some old wi/ht? posters like j00bie or me don't really deserve a consideration. Don't get me wrong, I like j00bie but he's such a troublemaker :P

Anyway, I agree that many users like Denvish, Mazza, Myst_Williams, TheJoe324 (if he accepts membership), ramagi (if she accepts), Tom, etc. deserved to be considered seriously. They all very as helpful, if not more than Alkador. I have nothing against Alkador, he is helpful, but some candidates were obviously better. I'm not here to blame the voters though. I think that the voters are a part of the problem, not the main problem.

The real problem is the way this Memberlist is set up. We still have macdeth on here. We still have Dobio on here. We still have Drimarki on here...and like 10 other inactive people as well. It's time for a change. Why can't we set up something that "retires" or "hall-of-fames" inactive people? Instead of DISMISSING people's opinions, can't we all come to an agreement? Obviously, there is a problem, and it might be a good idea to handle it before it get's out of control.

Can we make love? Finally, someone that types a similar message to what I was thinking for a long time. Everytime I doubted that the list was fine or that I suggested a change, I got flamed or pushed away instead of starting a discussion about this, this would be the perfect time to discuss about the main flaw of this list. A lot of people seem to disagree about how this list is made so an agreement seems necessary.

At 4/12/05 05:35 AM, FIGMENTUM wrote: My bottom line is this: Alkador has contributed to the community, I'll give him that. However, last time I checked, the Wi/Ht club was for well-established members who helped excessively. Alkador is still new around here (in respects to the competition) and DEFINITELY hasn't been the most helpful of the hopefuls. He is the MOST undeserving of the position and everyone who voted for him should seriously reconsider their criteria.

What would be the difference between a very helpful user and an excessively helpful user?
I honestly couldn't even count 10 excessively helpful user in the whole BBS (without counting the admins) so I think that you are exaggerating a little bit about the membership requirements. Anyway, I get the point and I agree. A member should be the most deserving user of the forum from the group of users that aren't include in this list yet.

At 4/12/05 09:48 AM, Denvish wrote: All this drama is fascinating to watch, though. I'm intrigued by it all, and am watching with bated breath. I just hope issues can be resolved peacefully, without people developing personal vendettas.

Yes, I also hope that this situation will be solved peacefully.

As for SK, you can't deny what happened in the past. It SHOULD be considered but you are partly right, what currently happens is also very important.

At 4/12/05 10:29 AM, EKRegulus wrote: Anyway, I agree that many users like Denvish, Mazza, Myst_Williams, TheJoe324 (if he accepts membership), ramagi (if she accepts), Tom, etc. deserved to be considered seriously. They all very as helpful, if not more than Alkador.

"They are all as helpful as Alkador, if not more." That part of my sentence was horrible. I thought that I checked it before pressing on "post it".

At 4/12/05 10:29 AM, EKRegulus wrote: I honestly think that Denvish, carmel and Mazza are underrated. All of them are very helpful.

Since a few users have clearly missed my past posts about this subject, I should clarify my position. I ruled myself out from the elections, as I felt it would be hypocritical of me to join the group when I strongly disagree with certain aspects of the way the Members list is run - aspects which have come to the fore since this most recent election, but about which I have been expressing doubts since before I got modship. I've posted several times in various threads about my concerns; in fact, when I first came back last summer and read RC's Wi/Ht vs Mod list, I blew up a little controversy about the inactive members such as Dobio and macdeth being on the list, to which the reply was 'once you're on, you're on for good'.

If the way the Members list is run is changed for the better (which is looking likely, with all this furore), then I might reconsider my stance (although I'm quite happy to remain a Regular) - but at the moment, I'm quite glad that questions are finally being asked about the validity of the current election process.

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote: I am officially pissed off!
I'm still sick and tired, so I'll post more later.

Clap, clap ,clap, that was probably the most well written post ever lol. Your basically sharing the opinions i have about retiring members (read my post from a page ago), Dobio, !?!?!

Anyway thanks for the rant RC it was most enjoyable, and you put across a hell of alot of things that needed to be said. *salutes*

At 4/12/05 05:35 AM, FIGMENTUM wrote: And that alone should be enough to take this whole thing seriously. We have NEVER seen this level of discontent over an election before. Accusations of despicable methods to ensure election, frustration over an undeserving member. The simple fact this came up should mean it's looked into.

Maby your right, but i don't belive there is ounce of truth behind these speculations, maby thats just me being nieve(sp?) but i honestly don't think any of the voters/members would be stupid enough to be fooled into voting for Alkador because he simply 'got to know them' on AIM/MSN.

The Wi/Ht community is NOT filled with malicious, selfish, insensible individuals. When an issue arises that gets so many people ticked off, there MUST be something behind it to get those people to speak up. If it wasn't important to them, this wouldn't have come up in the first place.

I fully agree i think the whole issue is in need of a review.

My bottom line is this: Alkador has contributed to the community, I'll give him that. However, last time I checked, the Wi/Ht club was for well-established members who helped excessively. Alkador is still new around here (in respects to the competition) and DEFINITELY hasn't been the most helpful of the hopefuls. He is the MOST undeserving of the position and everyone who voted for him should seriously reconsider their criteria.

Your right he is still very new to this forum, probably newer that every other member on RCVL (regulars) , i think he has only been posting here maby 3 months if that which is a 1/3 of the time alot of us older regualrs have been here. No disrespect to him but that isn't really long enough.

t 4/12/05 10:29 AM, EKRegulus wrote:

I honestly think that Denvish, carmel and Mazza are underrated. All of them are very helpful.

I rate Denvish very highly : P And Mazza especially that guy helps of no no end around here. He's my favourite for the next election.

p.s i read you whole post, and agree : P

Myst's Reply

Instead of going around and quoting everyone, I thought I would post my view of this problem as a new post rather than a reply. I am going to try my best not to center anyone out.

RedCircle, you have always been one of my favorite NG members, and that post you made at the end of the last page was well put and spot-on. I agreed with everything you had to say. There were candidates who deserved the spot more, but I do feel that you - and others - are getting a little too worked up. And by that, I don't mean, "It is only the internet, chill" I mean, "instead of being pissed, solve the solution.” And please don't feel I am pin-pointing you out. What I am trying to express is that instead of approaching the topic "pissed" and upset, try approaching it calmer with problem and solution tactics. I think the members should all be emailed and the email should request that anyone who is inactive should retire themselves voluntarily; if not, than they may be retired with force. Then a second list of 'Veterans' should be made to appreciate those who once made the list. Or, maybe only active users should be able to vote, but the list stays in tact. These are just solutions in my mind that may even be popping around. The point is, is that the problem still stands without resolution.

Another thing, and not just to RC, but it really is too late. Alk and SK made it on the list. And I feel sorry that for them that some don't believe one or the other belongs on the list. If I was one of them, I would hate reading this thread. I think people should be congratulating them and letting them have their moment, and then make sure that something like this does not happen in the future. Now, of course, no one has really outright attacked either of them, but the anger and hostility is there and I am sure they can feel it - uncomfortably that is.

Since the topic is far out there now, it really is unnecessary to hold back. So I will state that I do feel the positions were undeserving in some, and more than few respects. There are much more viable candidates. Some people mentioned me, but I feel I have not been around long enough yet to be a potential candidate (only been around for about 4 months), but there are others who really deserve the position on the member list more. I don’t have to name a few, because I think everyone knows who those few people are.

So, yes, it was screwed up. There are problems, and I only approached one of them, but I really think this should be approached differently and the list should be cleaned up appropriately. This can be fixed, so fix it. It is over and done with; it would not be fair to take it away from them, so why complain directly and instead be happy for them. Then proceed to make sure the problem is solved in the future.

That is my thoughts and feelings. The list is still good, but needs to be great again. As much as this all is a disappointment for many, lets let the past be and worry about the present and future.

Simply put.

The list is outdated. Alkador was not qualified to make the list at this time.

It seems that certain users in charge of the list, mainly gfoxcook, feel as if the list should be kept perfectly still and not have anything deviated from its original settings. Yet I think that some things will eventually fail the test of time and have to be altered to survive. I don't know but maybe once this list was a 36, yet today it's a 37, and it gfox's eyes it's still a 36. Not everything is always going to be working fine and dandy for this list. And the members aren't flawless, don't try to blind yourself from the fact they made an unwise decision by saying that they will always be making the wrong choices. And in this case I do think they did. Alkador is a friend of mine and I know he'll probably be upset that I'm going to be going against his being added to the list, but it was just something that shouldn't have happened. I don't know how it happened, or why, and I do have an idea of how it happened, but I'm trying to cling to Alkador's word and not think what I want to. So I'll just say that a bad call was made. There was no reason that -Mazza- got such a low amount of votes in comparision to Alkador. It really does prove how little attention some of the members pay nowadays. I always see -Mazza- helping out and expected him to go on with SK. Frankly, I never once thought of Alkador as even an option for this one. The amount of time he was here has just been too short. Maybe you all can vote in Wade next time, he posts here sometimes too. Also I think I may have seen Tremour's name under the "Users browsing this forum" as well, he'd make a great person for the group. Hey, maybe I could write a story about all of this and have you all read it for me. I saw the votes gfoxcook posted, and I agree with him there. Those were good picks. What I don't agree with him about is that the other members are right on this subject. I'm fairly sure you didn't seriously consider Alkador as member material, otherwise you would have voted for him. The members aren't perfect. I know because of the regular's elections. It's very easy to end up with a "dead vote" which you really don't need to give to anyone, yet you give it to a friend since you can't think of anyone else at the time of voting. Maybe that's what happened, maybe it was something more (which I really hope it wasn't). But overall it didn't need to happen. What if a bunch of the mods decided to nominate goldencat and have him modded? Wouldn't you just love that gfox? I mean, they are mods, they can't make a bad decision can they? Yes, that's an exaggeration, but you should get the point. Also, the next point. You really do need to explore removing older members who just aren't "members" anymore. That's not something I really cared about before and I had liked your whole "on for life" idea. But it is rather useless. Wade will probably end up demodding some older mods eventually. That's inevitable. He has just been trying to hold it off as long as possible, I mean he has addressed the fact at least. The same goes for this. There will be a point where "Hey, it's 2012 and Drimarki still isn't back, shouldn't we stop having him clog a spot?". That's just how it is.

I'm not too supportive of taking people off the list due to age, but I am against Alkador being added at this point in time when we still have users like -Mazza- sitting there waiting patiently for their chance to make it on. I'm not going to argue it with anyone, just saying what I feel. If you want to continue things in the messed up way they currently are then go ahead, but Denvish makes more and more sense now when it comes to this subject.

Clearly this latest election is proof that some of the older members aren't exactly in the 'know' when it comes to membership eligibility. Still, I would like to see them remain honoured on the list. Therefore, I propose we keep them on the list, but remove voting rights from those deemed unable to vote fittingly. The problem with this, however, is how to judge who is fit and who is not. This will also obviously cause tention and hostility between members. Still, it seems the most fitting solution at this point.

At 4/12/05 11:42 PM, BonusStage wrote: It is always better that way ;)

Haha, perv. *Drags BonusStage into the bushes and molests him*.

At 4/12/05 05:35 AM, FIGMENTUM wrote:

At 4/11/05 09:23 AM, -Myst- wrote: this club isn't worth people being angry at each other.

You are SO blind. There has been anger and tension between members for a LONG time.

Oh no, you're right, I always thought newgrounds was a magic place were nobody could get angry at anyone. Hey, who do you think I am? The fact tensions existed between members doesn't change anything, this club still isn't worth people getting angry at each others. THIS WHOLE CLUB, THIS WHOLE BOARD IS ABOUT HELPING NG USERS, WHY THE HELL IS THIS WHOLE MESS GOING ON?

What do you know, anyway? Seriously, nearly every one of your posts in the LUL is praise for Alkador's story.

Of course, but what else should I do? Advertise my stats and making congrats lists? Oh boy, it would be so much better.

Get your cock out of his ass if you want to be taken seriously.

Now what? You start insulting me only because I actually said I'd like the forum mood to be more friendly? Because I actually like him and like his stories? Because I'm a member and I don't deserve it? Just tell me, I'd like to know >:(

What the hell is wrong with you guys? You just start yelling at each other, getting all messed up because one guy made it to the list and isn't the one who deserves it best? Ok most of the members are inactive now, which makes their vote unworthy. Yes, some members are pretty helpful around and aren't in the memberlist. So what? This whole club has never been anything real serious anyway, if you wan't it to be different, ok, but you could just say it without spiting on alkador or anyone else. I've been really annoyed and disappointed by everyone's reaction toward this situation, it's completely absurd to create so much shit about it.

If you want the Wi/Ht? club to be more serious, then there are some things you NEED to do first :

1. Get rid of all inactive members, which could include me : just analyse the activity level of each member, ask him if he plans on coming more often if he's inactive and just put it in the "Wi/Ht? Hall of Fame"
2. When a vote is required, pick a list of potential new members, give a small resume of their NG activity (joining date, number of posts, Wi/Ht? activity, etc.) so the voters won't actually miss some helpful members.

'Cause I reckon it, when it came to voting, I had absolutely no idea of who wanted to join and who didn't. So I just basically asumed that the members I know to be helpful and here since a while to have already refused joining the club and just picked the new ones I know about, which included Alkador. Why didn't I take more time to pick my choices? Because until now, there has never been any stress about this club. You guys are definitely taking things too seriously. It's not how it worked in the club I joined or with the community I known. No surprise I'm coming less frequently, if you risk getting insulted by overreactive stat-addicted users.

At 4/13/05 10:50 AM, -Myst- wrote:

What do you know, anyway? Seriously, nearly every one of your posts in the LUL is praise for Alkador's story.

Of course, but what else should I do? Advertise my stats and making congrats lists? Oh boy, it would be so much better.

Actually, that's the whole reason I stopped hanging around in LUL. It became one big B/P thread, and after I'd lost interest in that long ago, there was really no conversation for me. I'm not complaining, just letting people know.

Jesus... Christ. To start this wonderful string of posts off (as it will take SEVERAL posts, undoubtedly, to reply to all that needs to be replied to), I'd like to point out that I pasted ALL the posts that have been made in here since I last posted... into one text file, and this is the resulting size:

36.9KB (37,823 bytes)

Incredible. So this is what it takes to make a topic active, eh? (sigh)

Anyway, no sense delaying the inevitable. Diving right in to the mass of posting that's been the ONLY part of Wi/Ht? I've been reading and replying to for half a week now. What a fun fun place this has become:

PART ONE:

At 4/11/05 12:26 PM, Tom_s00 wrote: I said the exact same thing to Eldarion last night. He may not be the most conulsive poster in some of the threads, but i have no doubt that Mazza is probably the best question answerer in the wi/ht.

You and Denvish aren't members, so you couldn't vote for Mazza. As a result, the questions become:

A) why didn't very many Wi/Ht? members agree with you and vote for Mazza?

B) why didn't you and Denvish campaign for him as strongly BEFORE the election as you are doing now AFTER the election when it's too late for Mazza to have been elected instead of Alkador?

I can't answer B, but as to A: I haven't seen very many of Mazza's posts. That's no indictment of him. I just don't know him very well! Maybe the same is true for many other members. MAYBE WE'RE ALL OUT OF FUCKING TOUCH WITH THE NON-MEMBERS. Guess what? The only way to fix that reliably is by inducting new members who ARE IN TOUCH and will stick around and will then VOTE IN LATER ELECTIONS.

But as long as there are people who don't WANT to be elected and as long as there are members who don't come to Wi/Ht? but still vote and as long as there are people who hang out around Wi/Ht? but aren't helpful enough in the eyes of others... THIS WILL REMAIN A PROBLEM.

HOWEVER: This. Isn't. That. Big. A. Deal.

Thats crazy dude, obsesive....

That would make sense, since I'm obsessive/compulsive, yes.

At 4/11/05 02:40 PM, Denvish wrote: Although I appreciate the (implied) compliment, I'm really not interested. I spend a lot of time in Wi/Ht, as you know, and the fact that -Mazza- didn't get in (despite IMO being the most consistently helpful of ALL Regulars and Members) is yet another reason for me to think that the Member elections are seriously flawed.
Even if I was a Member, I have a feeling my votes wouldn't have made a great deal of difference anyway. No offence to Alk or SK, but even with the occasional reappearance of several of the old crew, I still don't think the majority of them are in touch with what happens on a daily basis in this forum. Yes, the bias may change with the election of more regular members; but you're only around a couple of days a week, as is Recon; and some of the others are even more infrequent.

It's not implied. If you'd allow yourself to be elected, you'd be a lock for the next member of Wi/Ht?. But you don't, so you won't. I just find it strange that you're so troubled by Mazza not getting in to the membership yet you yourself won't enter the membership so you can MAKE A DIFFERENCE. It's like someone who's complaining about politics and the candidates one can vote for... but won't consider becoming a VOTER, an ACTIVIST, or a CANDIDATE himself. What the hell is going to change if the people who see the NEED for change don't step up and help? Your posting in here, don't get me wrong, is certainly making me think about things... so I SUPPOSE you could be seen as an "activist" in that respect. But you won't even consider becoming a voter/candidate, and those two things would be even MORE effective in changing Wi/Ht? to something you apparently want it changed into: a group that contains more worthy members than it does now. Or whatever.

Every freakin' vote makes a difference. This is a group with 23 members! Christ, 1 vote in this group is a HUGE difference, in fact.

And no shit I'm only on a couple of days a week. I also don't read all of level up!, but this group isn't supposed to be based solely upon who hangs out in level up!, it's supposed to be based on the forum as a whole. I don't claim to be up to date on EVERYone's participation around here. That's not really required before one votes, either. For the most part, we're voting on people based on PAST deeds and speech, not on CURRENT levels of helpfulness. Nor are we trying to necessarily PREDICT FUTURE levels of helpfulness, though it'd be great if we could.

As a result, election into Wi/Ht? is often more of a "hall of fame" vote than a "this person is currently super-active and needs to be memberized RIGHT NOW." After all, it's not like they HAVE to be a member to continue being helpful. They will do so whether or not they are a member. Like I keep saying, membership in Wi/Ht? is NOTHING LIKE BEING MODDED. One HAS to be modded to mod. One does NOT have to be made a member to help out on Wi/Ht?.

I dunno. Being part of the group just doesn't appeal to me at all.

Being a part of almost every club on NG didn't appeal to me at all in March of 2003, but when spancker asked me to join Wi/Ht?, I was such a part of this forum and I loved so many things about it and its regulars and members that I had to say "okay, sure." However, the past few pages of this topic have made me start to regret ever joining in the first place. Maybe you've got the right idea after all. Isolationism makes EVERYthing so much easier.

As for the election votes, is there any particular reason why they're kept secret after new members have been elected?

To avoid hurt feelings. Looks like that's working really well, eh? (sigh)

At 4/11/05 03:15 PM, _redruM_ wrote: Wise as always. Perhaps part of the problem did come from comparing Alkador to ShittyKitty.

I think a large part of the problem came from Alkador paling in comparison to ShittyKitty, yes. But then again, I doubt that the controversy over this would have been lessened if Alkador had been voted in by himself... but OTOH, I doubt he COULD have been voted in by himself. I think a lot of people saw him as a good "Second choice" to SK, and they voted for him in that capacity. For the first time ever, IMO, the "two at once" idea seems to have backfired.

PART TWO:

At 4/11/05 03:43 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: I am away for one weekend and i miss all this. Well, i don't care who got in and how. It really is not a big deal, i just want to give my congrats to SK and Alk. I think they are both helpful and good members of NG and are suitable for the placement. Damn Alk though for making both lists all at once and i havn't made even one. heh. : P

I didn't think it was that big a deal either, but apparently you, me, Recon, and Mystboy are in the minority.

At 4/11/05 04:17 PM, _lightning_ wrote: Does any one know if Rebel ever checks his email? >_<

He doesn't on Mondays. Which is what 4/11/05 was. Monday/Tuesday is his weekend, remember?

It's now Wednesday the 13th and he's back at work tonight. Hopefully he'll respond to your e-mail and/or check in to this topic tonight. Either way, you could always e-mail ME if it's something about this whole thing, man.

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote: First off, I like Alkador. He's a wonderful person and a good friend. I hope you all know to separate my friendship with Alkador with my opinion that he is not qualified to be the next Member. I'm sure that in a little bit of time, he'll actually DESERVE the title of Wi/Ht Member, because he is helpful and a good person.

Then WHY THE HECK are you and so many other people acting like this is teh END OF TEH WORLD?!?!

Alkador should NOT be a Member now. Why? Because he hasn't put his time in the forum like so many other people have. Are you all seriously blind or something? Have you even read shit in here in the last few months?

Subjective.

Why didn't we elect Tom_s00, Mazza, EKRegulus, Denvish, Yoink_VineS, carmelhadinosaur, BonusStage, or Kiba? Those are just some of the people who are more qualified than Alkador. They have been ten times more active than Alkador, and you all just overlook them? It's sickening.

Because Denvish won't allow himself to be elected.

As to everyone else: they were all certainly electable... AND THEY WILL CONTINUE TO BE FOR THE JUNE ELECTION. Christ. This wasn't the "last election of Wi/Ht? EVAR!!!!" or something. People are acting like it was. Like Alkador was the "final member of Wi/Ht?" If that was true, then PERHAPS I might agree with them that it wasn't the best way to end the induction of new members.

I considered voting for Bonus or Yoink this time around to go with ShittyKitty, but I ended up going with SK/EKR. Is that sickening as well? Apologies for not thinking exactly like you if so.

Because if people get in who don't deserve to get in, then it DEFEATS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF HAVING THIS LIST. Hello??????????????? Hey, why don't we just elect Goldencat or GeorgeTopouria next election?

No it doesn't. It might CHEAPEN things a bit, but it doesn't "defeat the entire purpose." If someone who has hardly any stats at all gets modded or joins Wi/Ht? and is thus on your RCVL but is dragging all the averages and totals down, does that mean it "DEFEATS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF HAVING [THAT] LIST"?

The real reason? I'd rather not be a part of a list that contains two things. 1. People who don't belong there. 2. People who aren't even bothering to look at the people they are voting for.

1. Subjective.

2. You don't know that. Perhaps some of the people who voted for Alkador WERE careless. Perhaps others ACTUALLY LIKE HIM AND WANTED HIM TO JOIN. You and others may THINK that Alkador only gained entry by writing his fanfic and by sucking up to people, but YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY BE 100% CERTAIN, now can you.

Now, if all the people who voted for Alkador want to step forward in this topic and talk about WHY they voted for him, that's fine. And if Recon wants to break the whole fucking thing open and publicise the votecounts and who voted for whom (which I doubt he will do, but it is HIS decision as he ran this election), then so be it. But until then, I wish you and others would stop making judgements of other members and their motivations. You don't know any of it for sure.

The real problem is the way this Memberlist is set up. We still have macdeth on here. We still have Dobio on here. We still have Drimarki on here...and like 10 other inactive people as well. It's time for a change. Why can't we set up something that "retires" or "hall-of-fames" inactive people? Instead of DISMISSING people's opinions, can't we all come to an agreement? Obviously, there is a problem, and it might be a good idea to handle it before it get's out of control.

The entire memberlist ALREADY IS a hall of fame. Everyone receives a number in the order people are added and the list goes up. Would it really make you and so many others feel better if I just stuck an "inactive" or "retired" next to certain people on the list? I'm not going to make separate lists, though.

"Hey buddy, I know you haven't been to Newgrounds for 2 years, but cast your votes!" There's a problem with this.

Most of the people who are inactive, I might point out, DON'T TEND TO VOTE IN THE ELECTIONS. Do you really think that Drimarki, spancker, Jessica, etc. etc. all suddenly show up via e-mail and vote for random people?!?!?!

We have the MemberList because these people have dedicated a LOT of time to the forum. These people are the most dedicated people of Where is/How to. Don't you think that when someone is elected, everyone should agree? I mean, wake up! People are not happy. You simply cannot just dismiss those opinions. It's fucking rude.

You want everyone to agree on every election? We'd never have any. Seriously. Not everyone agreed upon ShittyKitty being someone to vote for this time around, for one thing. I thought perhaps they might have, but jonthomson has proven that we didn't all agree on even HIM.

The few that we'd all agree on are ones who won't allow themselves to be voted for (TheJoe, ramagi, Denvish), in fact.

Quote time! Oh joy!

(snip)

Read that.

(snip)

Read that.

(snip)

Read that.

(snip)

Read that.

You don't think there's...um...a PROBLEM do you?

Come on, man. What the hell.

People are MAKING more of a problem out of this than IMO they should. That's their business. But I think it's insane how so many of you are reacting to this.

PART THREE:

At 4/12/05 05:35 AM, FIGMENTUM wrote:

At 4/11/05 07:49 AM, _lightning_ wrote: You people this this all way to seriously . :P

Yeah. We're taking this way too seriously. We should go and vote in any random schmoe who doesn't deserve the title in the slightest. I think Stamper would be a great addition. Who cares? Let's just lay back and smoke a bud. Chill out. The club means nothing.

You forgot your "HA HA! INTERNET!" picture.

He didn't say the club means nothing. You're overreacting. He said people are taking this election too seriously. I agree. Are you going to accuse me of not caring about Wi/Ht?'s membership? Go for it, if you like. It won't make it true, but if it makes you feel better about Alkador's HORRIBLE INDUCTION into the club, then bash my lack of concern all you like.

And that alone should be enough to take this whole thing seriously. We have NEVER seen this level of discontent over an election before. Accusations of despicable methods to ensure election, frustration over an undeserving member. The simple fact this came up should mean it's looked into.

Indeed we haven't seen this level of discontent before. Dobio's election is perhaps the closest comparision. But it was INEVITABLE. I don't see why RC thinks that we all should agree on everything perfectly. The more people we add to this membership the more individuals it contains. The more individuals... the more INDIVIDUAL THINKING. The more individual thinking, the MORE DISAGREEMENT. What is so hard to understand about this? People of GENERALLY like minds STILL are going to disagree at times.

The Wi/Ht community is NOT filled with malicious, selfish, insensible individuals. When an issue arises that gets so many people ticked off, there MUST be something behind it to get those people to speak up. If it wasn't important to them, this wouldn't have come up in the first place.

It's fine that this is important to the people who are upset, but people are blowing this up into something BIGGER than it really is. And the way things are going... I seriously feel like going to liljim and having it locked right after I post these. I won't, but I feel like doing it.

It's like... because there's a LIST of members... people are getting upset. Maybe a Wi/Ht? memberlist is as dangerous thing on Wi/Ht? as a BBS posters top 50 list would be on General. Maybe this topic I created over two years ago... is nothing but a cancer on the one forum on NG that I love. If so, that's pretty fucked up that you guys couldn't handle a topic about a list of members of a group of people who like to help others out. It's sad.

At 4/11/05 09:23 AM, -Myst- wrote: this club isn't worth people being angry at each other.

You are SO blind. There has been anger and tension between members for a LONG time.

WE'RE ALL HUMAN. Big surprise. But just because there's BEEN fights and tension doesn't mean there SHOULD BE. Myst is right: this isn't WORTH people being angry at each other. That's not the same thing as saying there CAN'T BE ANGER, it's saying there SHOULDN'T BE. See the difference? Don't call the man blind because he WISHES there was no fighting about this.

What do you know, anyway? Seriously, nearly every one of your posts in the LUL is praise for Alkador's story. Get your cock out of his ass if you want to be taken seriously.

(sigh) Was that really necessary?

At 4/11/05 12:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote: So everyone's going to pale in comparison to SK in that respect, eh?

And the person who should be elected is the one who pales LEAST, NOT the one who pales most.

Subjective.

I would hope that most of us Wi/Ht?ers would treat election into this membership a bit more seriously than a lame talent show or attention-whorey popularity contest.

That's all I'm seeing at the moment. Apparently we're not supposed to voice our concerns about it.

I don't think you're right about it being "all you're seeing." Maybe it's becoming true for too many members now, but I really doubt that ALL THE VOTERS are treating the elections that way. If they were, apparently EVERYONE would have voted for Alkador this past election.

But they didn't.

And who said you can't voice your concerns about it? You can voice your concerns all you want, but I have the right to voice MY concerns that this topic is going to hell BECAUSE of said concerns. And it's making the whole fucking thing seem more and more pointless.

Draining the joy, so to speak. Just draining it allllll away.

Can't we all just relax and realise that "what it takes" to be elected into Wi/Ht? has changed over the years and that it's not a perfect science?

Sure gfoxcook. Let's change the club's name to "Where is/How to Write a Story Club" while we're at it.

Save the sarcasm for someone else. I didn't vote for the guy, and I haven't even read more than a few paragraphs of his story. But I'm not filled with venom and hatred towards him like you seem to be, and I'm thankful for that.

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote:

My bottom line is this: Alkador has contributed to the community, I'll give him that. However, last time I checked, the Wi/Ht club was for well-established members who helped excessively. Alkador is still new around here (in respects to the competition) and DEFINITELY hasn't been the most helpful of the hopefuls. He is the MOST undeserving of the position and everyone who voted for him should seriously reconsider their criteria.

It's disgraceful.

Right. This is the worst thing to ever happen to this forum. Alkador being voted in. It's armageddon!

At 4/12/05 06:24 AM, jonthomson wrote: As far as all the hoohah, I don't really care as I didn't vote for either of them. No disrespect to SK or Alkador, I thought there were better candidates. But a majority of active members voted them in. That should be the end of it. If you don't like it, meh.

Thanks for that short and sweet informative post. I had been wondering if anyone didn't vote for SK. Do you mind telling us who you DID vote for? Perhaps then, at least, RC, FIG, redrum, Bonus, and Kiba would all know that there's someone out there who is a sane voter in the membership besides them (in the case of the first three).

PART FOUR:

At 4/12/05 07:30 AM, BonusStage wrote: True, i bet there are some people who are enough better than SK that should've gotten in, but IMO of course that's a hard thing to find ;P

Sure, but... let's not let that stop us, eh? According to RC, we should only vote in the most PERFECT of candidates... who ALL members will be able to agree are PERFECT for the membership. And as a result, if there are conceivably people who are "better" than SK... then perhaps we shouldn't have voted for SK after all. We should have abstained from voting AT ALL for new members.... until JESUS HIMSELF CAME ALONG AND BECAME A REGULAR OF WI/HT?

That's apparently what some people are waiting for.

At 4/12/05 09:34 AM, _redruM_ wrote: Well, at least BonusStage and I aren't alone anymore.

When it was just you and Bonus "alone," the conversation in here seemed sane. Now it doesn't.

I wish I knew who voted for you, it would make it easier to see where this problem came from. Did inactive members get the email, then browse the LUL, see a bunch of Alkador posts and decide to vote for him? That seems unlikely, but something does seem to have gone wrong here.

Ask Recon what happened. He's the person people e-mailed their votes to, after all. Maybe he will feel like telling you whether inactive members voted or not. Judging from the fact that only about half the membership voted, however, I would put money down on a bet that it was mostly (if not exclusively) active members who voted.

But let me just say that I find it disturbing how you refer to the election of a fellow human being into our little grouping as a "problem." Just because you disagree with it. That's SCARY talk.

At 4/12/05 09:48 AM, Denvish wrote: I have a massive deal of respect for Josh, but he should have been elected during the time of his MASSIVE Wi/Ht involvement last summer & autumn.

Sometimes people are elected later than they should have been. Do I need to mention again how I've voted for Toocool twice in the past 4 elections only to see that everyone else (for the most part) had forgotten about how much more active he used to be around here? I'd still love to induct him, but I gave my votes to people who had made more RECENT contributions of activity.

At 4/12/05 10:10 AM, deslona wrote: Of course I'm not a member and would't know what I'm taking about...

Non-members' opinions are welcomed on this forum. And just because you're not a member doesn't mean you can't be a regular, can't be helpful, and/or can't make PLENTY of important, informative, funny, and great posts around here.

At 4/12/05 10:29 AM, EKRegulus wrote:

At 4/12/05 04:37 AM, RedCircle wrote: Why didn't we elect Tom_s00, Mazza, EKRegulus, Denvish, Yoink_VineS, carmelhadinosaur, BonusStage, or Kiba?

I honestly think that Denvish, carmel and Mazza are underrated. All of them are very helpful.

Denvish. Doesn't. Want. To. Be. Elected.

Carmel's not around very much. Mazza, like I said, might be the most deserving member EVER, but I haven't seen shitloads of his posts, personally. That doesn't mean others haven't, though.

So I shouldn't even be considered in the voting process for the members' list because most candidates are much better than me as helpful wi/ht? posters. Being very active for a long time is obviously not enough and some old wi/ht? posters like j00bie or me don't really deserve a consideration. Don't get me wrong, I like j00bie but he's such a troublemaker :P

Bullcrap. I voted for you because I disagree with that. And even joobie COULD deserve consideration. You think that just because of joobie's past no one would vote for him? If he stopped fooling around non-stop and started actually replying helpfully to all the newbie topics around here and shit, I guarantee you people would start voting for him in the elections. Same goes for Bonus, Kiba, etc. If they had all REALLY wanted to join this membership, they would have been in long ago simply by "seriousing" up their acts for awhile.

Anyway, I agree that many users like Denvish, Mazza, Myst_Williams, TheJoe324 (if he accepts membership), ramagi (if she accepts), Tom, etc. deserved to be considered seriously.

Denvish, Joe, ramagi = HAVE ALL SAID NOT TO VOTE FOR THEM.

Myst_Williams is about as new to Wi/Ht? as Alkador is, so I don't know why you're suggesting him. I suspect something similar to this furor over Alkador would have happened if M_W had been elected instead of him.

As for Mazza... well, like I keep saying, I'm open to voting for him in the future, but I didn't know enough about him in the past to vote for him this past election. The way you and Denvish and others are talking about him, though, he sounds like the second coming. I'll try to stay tuned.

Everytime I doubted that the list was fine or that I suggested a change, I got flamed or pushed away instead of starting a discussion about this, this would be the perfect time to discuss about the main flaw of this list. A lot of people seem to disagree about how this list is made so an agreement seems necessary.

Main flaw of the list. Pffft.

You guys are so freakin' insane. You've focussed all this energy on this little list and topic I made so long ago... when I made it there were 9 members in the group. Do you think the group IS the list or something? The group was around BEFORE this topic or list were made. The list is simply a description OF the group, a history OF the group, and a hall of fame OF this forum. Christ. I made the list the way I wanted to, and the list remains the way I want it to be. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW ELECTIONS ARE PERFORMED.

What would be the difference between a very helpful user and an excessively helpful user?
I honestly couldn't even count 10 excessively helpful user in the whole BBS (without counting the admins) so I think that you are exaggerating a little bit about the membership requirements. Anyway, I get the point and I agree. A member should be the most deserving user of the forum from the group of users that aren't include in this list yet.

A lot of people are still waiting for Jesus, apparently, as the normally helpful users aren't good enough for inclusion.

PART FIVE:

At 4/12/05 11:46 AM, Denvish wrote: If the way the Members list is run is changed for the better (which is looking likely, with all this furore), then I might reconsider my stance (although I'm quite happy to remain a Regular) - but at the moment, I'm quite glad that questions are finally being asked about the validity of the current election process.

Like I said, I'm happy to slap "inactive"s and "retired"s into the listing if that will make all of you people happy. This list isn't supposed to be some sort of active roster of helpfulness. It's simply a listing of the people who have been appointed to or elected into the membership, the dates on which that happened, and other such info. It's a record of Wi/Ht? membership history now, a hall of fame.

Taking people off this list would be like removing Babe Ruth's name from the top 3 list of home run hitters. It's ridiculous. It's ignoring the past because it happened "too long ago." It's revisionist thinking.

Even if you guys got Recon to throw Alkador out, I'd probably leave his line on the list for historical purposes. Just as I'll be leaving Osamarama on my list of mods and their moderation dates, even if his demodding request is granted (or has it been already?).

This list isn't changing. How elections happen, or what the Wi/Ht? membership CONSISTS of... is what you guys are REALLY concerned with. Or should be. But for some reason, you've let your attentions all focus on the listing. I guess because it's the tangible evidence OF the membership. But it should not be mistaken for it.

At 4/12/05 12:39 PM, Tom_s00 wrote: Clap, clap ,clap, that was probably the most well written post ever lol. Your basically sharing the opinions i have about retiring members (read my post from a page ago), Dobio, !?!?!

Most well written post EVER? ...

Anyway thanks for the rant RC it was most enjoyable, and you put across a hell of alot of things that needed to be said. *salutes*

You people are all insane! #;-}>

Maby your right, but i don't belive there is ounce of truth behind these speculations, maby thats just me being nieve(sp?) but i honestly don't think any of the voters/members would be stupid enough to be fooled into voting for Alkador because he simply 'got to know them' on AIM/MSN.

naive, since you asked. And speaking of spelling/usage... it's YOU'RE, not your. (maybe YOU'RE right, etc. etc.)

Anyway, I agree with you, I don't think people are that stupid.

Your right he is still very new to this forum, probably newer that every other member on RCVL (regulars) , i think he has only been posting here maby 3 months if that which is a 1/3 of the time alot of us older regualrs have been here. No disrespect to him but that isn't really long enough.

In your opinion it's not long enough. This may surprise you, but I was only on Wi/Ht? for 1 month or so when spancker added me to its membership. I don't get where you people think there are some sort of hard, restrictive requirements that either SHOULD be or ARE applied to Wi/Ht? membership.

The closest we've had to that have been guidelines that spancker wrote, but some of his were wayyyyy out of line with reality, and a lot of people protested. There's no perfect way to go about running this membership and adding people to it, but fortunately, this isn't the U.N., so it doesn't matter all that much when things aren't perfect. At least, I THOUGHT it didn't matter that much. Apparently I was wrong.

At 4/12/05 07:07 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: RedCircle, you have always been one of my favorite NG members, and that post you made at the end of the last page was well put and spot-on. I agreed with everything you had to say. There were candidates who deserved the spot more, but I do feel that you - and others - are getting a little too worked up.

How can his insane post be "well put and spot-on" if you agree with me that he (and others) are getting a little too worked up?

You just pegged a possible solution, and something MUCH MORE FUCKING IMPORTANT than making a separate "veterans list" and "active list" thing:

"Or, maybe only active users should be able to vote, but the list stays in tact."

THIS is something I'm willing to discuss, and if Recon and/or spancker are as well, then perhaps we'll consider it. But how to go about determining who should be e-mailed and who shouldn't be is a whole new bag of thorns.

Another thing, and not just to RC, but it really is too late. Alk and SK made it on the list. And I feel sorry that for them that some don't believe one or the other belongs on the list. If I was one of them, I would hate reading this thread.

No kidding. Well said.

At 4/12/05 10:03 PM, Inuzuka-Kiba wrote: Simply put.

The list is outdated. Alkador was not qualified to make the list at this time.

THE LIST IS THE LIST. It's not outdated. It just IS. You fools need to get your brains looked at. Don't you realise that I'm just listing the history of this membership?!

You guys think you're talking about the list, but you're REALLY talking about the elections process and how people are voting. GET IT STRAIGHT. Christ.

It seems that certain users in charge of the list, mainly gfoxcook, feel as if the list should be kept perfectly still and not have anything deviated from its original settings.

I'm not a "user in charge of the list," I'm the guy who decided to make this topic and make the list. THE LIST DOES NOT EQUAL THE MEMBERSHIP. The person in charge of the membership is SPANCKER. The people spancker puts in charge while he's gone are RECONREBEL and MYSELF. We cannot just change everything about Wi/Ht? if we wanted to without asking him first. But he trusts us to conduct elections and do minor things like that. Only you guys feel like making minor things into major things every now and then, apparently.

[snip HUGE paragraph]

You sound just like those insane people who say "OMG, WADE, DEMOD SOME MODS SO WE CAN HAVE NEW ONES." There's no fucking need for a member to be demembered just so a new member can be added. There's no "shortage of space" in the membership. Drimarki's spot on the list isn't CLOGGING SHIT UP FOR ANYONE. Get that through your heads, damnit!

And that shit about voting for Tremour or Wade just because they've been on the online users list or posted once or twice in the forum... is totally uncalled for.

PART SIX:

At 4/13/05 02:10 AM, _redruM_ wrote: Clearly this latest election is proof that some of the older members aren't exactly in the 'know' when it comes to membership eligibility. Still, I would like to see them remain honoured on the list. Therefore, I propose we keep them on the list, but remove voting rights from those deemed unable to vote fittingly. The problem with this, however, is how to judge who is fit and who is not. This will also obviously cause tention and hostility between members. Still, it seems the most fitting solution at this point.

Removing voting rights is perfectly fine, but yes, how to judge who can vote and who can't is the issue. I am fucking THANKFUL to see so many of you finally realise that the LIST has nothing to fucking do with the election process and the membership itself. HALLELUJAH!

At 4/13/05 10:50 AM, -Myst- wrote: Oh no, you're right, I always thought newgrounds was a magic place were nobody could get angry at anyone. Hey, who do you think I am? The fact tensions existed between members doesn't change anything, this club still isn't worth people getting angry at each others. THIS WHOLE CLUB, THIS WHOLE BOARD IS ABOUT HELPING NG USERS, WHY THE HELL IS THIS WHOLE MESS GOING ON?

Exactly.

What the hell is wrong with you guys? You just start yelling at each other, getting all messed up because one guy made it to the list and isn't the one who deserves it best? Ok most of the members are inactive now, which makes their vote unworthy. Yes, some members are pretty helpful around and aren't in the memberlist. So what? This whole club has never been anything real serious anyway, if you wan't it to be different, ok, but you could just say it without spiting on alkador or anyone else. I've been really annoyed and disappointed by everyone's reaction toward this situation, it's completely absurd to create so much shit about it.

Thank you.

If you want the Wi/Ht? club to be more serious, then there are some things you NEED to do first :

1. Get rid of all inactive members, which could include me : just analyse the activity level of each member, ask him if he plans on coming more often if he's inactive and just put it in the "Wi/Ht? Hall of Fame"
2. When a vote is required, pick a list of potential new members, give a small resume of their NG activity (joining date, number of posts, Wi/Ht? activity, etc.) so the voters won't actually miss some helpful members.

The list is ALREADY the hall of fame. I'm going to add in "inactive" and "retired" markers right now, though.

'Cause I reckon it, when it came to voting, I had absolutely no idea of who wanted to join and who didn't. So I just basically asumed that the members I know to be helpful and here since a while to have already refused joining the club and just picked the new ones I know about, which included Alkador. Why didn't I take more time to pick my choices? Because until now, there has never been any stress about this club. You guys are definitely taking things too seriously. It's not how it worked in the club I joined or with the community I known. No surprise I'm coming less frequently, if you risk getting insulted by overreactive stat-addicted users.

Now now, save the "stat-addicted" part, man. That's got nothing to do with it. I'm stat-addicted, but I'm not joining the others in bashing the election of Alkador. I didn't vote for him, but I'm with you on this. If you wanted to vote for him, you had EVERY FUCKING RIGHT TO VOTE FOR HIM. They apparently can't possibly come to terms with that.

Here's the list with the changes that hopefully everyone will see and go "oohhhh, okay, I get it now, not everyone on the list is supposed to be SUPERACTIVEHELPFUL right this very moment." One can hope:

Wi/Ht? ID ... NG date .. Wi/Ht? date .. user ID .. NG username

Wi/Ht? #1 ... 12/22/01 .. 02/11/03 .. 251796 .. spancker (inactive)
Wi/Ht? #2 ... 10/05/02 .. 02/11/03 .. 376145 .. Drimarki [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #3 ... 06/23/02 .. 02/14/03 .. 324621 .. ReconRebel
Wi/Ht? #4 ... 01/24/02 .. 02/15/03 .. 263431 .. leeboy105
Wi/Ht? #5 ... 06/10/01 .. 02/22/03 .. 174015 .. Transformers [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #6 ... 09/16/02 .. 02/24/03 .. 368382 .. XkwiziTOnE (inactive)
Wi/Ht? #7 ... 04/12/02 .. 02/24/03 .. 294191 .. _lightning_
Wi/Ht? #8 ... 02/20/03 .. 03/28/03 .. 457815 .. Mr_James
Wi/Ht? #9 ... 02/18/00 .. 04/18/03 .. __7941 .. gfoxcook
Wi/Ht? #10 . 01/29/03 .. 04/27/03 .. 442572 .. _redruM_
Wi/Ht? #11 . 06/29/02 .. 07/19/03 .. 327836 .. Afterburner
Wi/Ht? #12 . 11/18/02 .. 07/20/03 .. 397797 .. D0GMA
Wi/Ht? #13 . 07/07/02 .. 07/29/03 .. 332379 .. Dobio [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #14 . 07/27/02 .. 07/30/03 .. 343163 .. Crono-
Wi/Ht? #15 . 09/12/01 .. 08/09/03 .. 214132 .. Mystboy
Wi/Ht? #16 . 03/29/01 .. 11/15/03 .. 145633 .. MacBeth- [RETIRED]
Wi/Ht? #17 . 05/18/00 .. 12/31/03 .. _37436 .. jonthomson
Wi/Ht? #18 . 01/17/01 .. 03/10/04 .. 119768 .. XwaynecoltX
Wi/Ht? #19 . 04/15/01 .. 06/14/04 .. 150818 .. MPA
Wi/Ht? #20 . 11/27/03 .. 08/20/04 .. 681791 .. Qwoxyl
Wi/Ht? #21 . 10/06/03 .. 11/01/04 .. 635433 .. RedCircle
Wi/Ht? #22 . 02/06/02 .. 04/09/05 .. 267310 .. ShittyKitty
Wi/Ht? #23 . 08/10/03 .. 04/09/05 .. 590813 .. Alkador

Great god, I thought this crap would never end. You've said what was needed to say, I'm sorry I couldn't do it myself, but I was a little angry at the moment (I reckon the stat-addicted thing has nothing to do with it, I was just a little messed up by FIGMENTUM's post).

Ok guys, just take a deep breath and read gfox's post. You probably won't agree with most of what he said, but that's ok. Now look back at what everyone posted and think about it. You don't think this situation has gone a little too far? If this memberlist is so unworthy, then why doing such a big deal with the nomination of its members? Yelling and getting all screwed up won't do any good, it never did.

I hope I'll learn things have calmed down ... now I'm out of this whole thing. I don't think I'm a major player in this board anyway.

At 4/13/05 03:22 PM, gfoxcook wrote: Lots of text

Well, I had a massive multi-quote reply ready to post, but changed my mind, as I agree that it should be left up to the Members to come to some kind of arrangement regarding future elections. I've said pretty much everything I've wanted to say on the subject, and seemingly raised a few valid questions. I just want to state that my initial congratulations to both Alkador and SK still stand, I like and respect both of them, and there's no question in my mind that they should remain on the list. So let's allow the dust to settle and the air to clear.... people have all made their points I believe, so I'm in favour of backing off and letting this thread rest for a while.