At 8/4/09 12:42 AM, Shaun wrote: It seems to me they are trying to make it as incredibly obvious that it is a HBK DX come back thing just to possibly swerve us?
Who else has HHH teamed up with who could come back?

They could bring back The Two Man Power Trip. But no, I think it's definitely DX, and they haven't put enough thought into it to swerve the audience.

I really dont want to see DX together, we saw all that not very long ago.

It's the law of diminishing returns. DX will eventually just become like the Brothers of Destruction and team up for one week to get an insignificant pop. This is why they shouldn't put Edge and Christian back together.

At 8/4/09 01:03 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Geez, what a complete burial of Miz they've done. Did he park in somebody's space or something?

I don't understand their booking whatsoever. The only good thing that will come out of this is The Miz going to ECW or SD! to be booked better. I see him going to ECW to give them at least some talent.

Though I think this might be the best possible team to flip the tag titles too right now if they're willing to actually help get other acts over, since as much as a some people think DX is stale and whatever but they could mean a slight shot in the arm to the ratings of the other shows and with the way the tag belts are structured these days that's probably the sort of guys you're going to see as champions from now on: an act that can help draw ratings across at least the big two brands.

I don't see that happening. Triple H is 40 now, and HBK is in his mid 40's, and not 100% from what I hear, so it can't be a good idea to give them a heavier schedule than everyone else.

I guess they could use the tag team thing to rest HBK, but he'll still have to wrestle a little bit, more often than he would otherwise.

Also what the hell was the dig at Flair about? I'm sure it was something to pop dad and all but...fuck the guy is supposed to be your friend, and certainly H has enough power to just go "I don't want to say that" and not have to.

I don't get how HHH is allowed to make those kind of smart-jokes. Did you hear the "I didn't think you did jobs" line as well? This always happens when DX are around. It's not like most of the fans know what the hell he's talking about, and it's quite detrimental if they do.

At 8/4/09 12:42 AM, Shaun wrote: It seems to me they are trying to make it as incredibly obvious that it is a HBK DX come back thing just to possibly swerve us?
Who else has HHH teamed up with who could come back?

Maybe..*Shudder* X-pac? Nah. Thats way to out there. I doubt they would let him back in the WWE.

Raw annoyed me more than anything else last night. The more I think about it the more it pissed me off. The guests were annoying, the matches were not the best quality we've seen, and Miz got buried. Annoying crap all the way through.

I understand that WWE wants people to think that Cena is super tough, but last night was too much. Are you telling me that they want us to think that Cena can take 8-10 guys at a time and win? He got a major beatdown and was shoved back in after it. A 10 seconds later he was up, hit his finisher and was standing strong. Thats not good booking!!!!! You just made every single heel look weak and pathetic, especially the guy Cena pinned. If your opponents are weak and pathetic then you gain nothing from beating them, and if you lose then that means that you are worse than weak and pathetic. Use your head WWE!

At 8/4/09 01:03 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Also what the hell was the dig at Flair about? I'm sure it was something to pop dad and all but...fuck the guy is supposed to be your friend, and certainly H has enough power to just go "I don't want to say that" and not have to.

Probably due to the fact that Flair has gone out on his own to do some autograph signings and try and make some money, instead of remaining "loyal to Vince" after the send-off he got.

Can't really say I'm surprised about it. It was a typical petty move by Vince.

And last night's RAW was awful! I laughed my ass off after seeing that WWE broke up the Colons, so they could have a 3 minute throwaway match on RAW.

Miz's RAW run = FAIL

i can see it now, morrison is the #1 contender for the WHC, during the match, miz re-debuts on SD! and ruins morrison's chances, making a feud between the two.

raw was pretty bland.. cept trips losing clean.. and not by cena or orton. the 'phone call' he gave was a bit of a chin scratcher.. what was with the whole "i know you promised that you would never come back" part?..
also i have to admit.. seeing mark henry wearing a leprechaun hat did make me laugh.. also the heel click he did after the match was pretty funny.
piven's appearance was ok.. i liked the little heel turn at the end of the show.. also the flying cross body off the top rope he did.. wasn't that bad.. i mean he's no steamboat, but no botches involved (cept the 'summerfest' remark). also goddamn, dr ken took quite a bump.. i didn't see him get up at all after that spot he did, not only did he clash heads with swagger, but his head hit the ground when he hit the floor.. ouch.. you gotta give it up for him for taking a big spot like that.

but i noticed.. raw lacked jericho (i know he's a SD! wrestler but still..) and no santino appearance at all.. also just a week after his comeback, chris masters doesn't even have a match?.. i know he put the masterlock on cena, but they could of had him in that match against primo instead of carlito.

sgt. slaughter next week maggots! were back to wrestlers hosting raw again!

I'd like to take this time to say that Doc Whatever-The-Fuck needs to be violently beaten. He pretty much dragged down the entire show with his retardation. Only towards the end when he cut it out could I stand the idiot.

Me & RandomHero3 are in agreement over tghe Mark Henry bit - sorry, but it WAS hilarious. Definitely needed to be cheered up after aforementioned earsore. I'm somewhat surprised the ring didn't buckle after the heel-click.........or that HE ACTUALLY DID IT. o_O

Piven was somewhat tolerable, just less so with that IDIOT! Can I stress that enough?

Hopefully The Sarge will make up for this disaster-fest.

At 8/3/09 01:40 PM, TheD-LucksEdition wrote: On the subject of Zeke, I'd just like to say that his theme is awesome, even if it is just the Brawl For All theme with lyrics.

Quite catchy.

At 8/3/09 11:21 PM, Zornkatzu wrote: As big a fan as I am of Michaels, does anyone else find it kind of sad that we need a 44 year old man to come back in order to save Raw?

Hey, whatever works - and ya' know it will.

At 8/4/09 01:03 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Also what the hell was the dig at Flair about? I'm sure it was something to pop dad and all but...fuck the guy is supposed to be your friend, and certainly H has enough power to just go "I don't want to say that" and not have to.

I'm sure Flair knows Trips' sense of humor. :P

At 8/4/09 08:57 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: Did you hear the "I didn't think you did jobs" line as well? This always happens when DX are around. It's not like most of the fans know what the hell he's talking about, and it's quite detrimental if they do.

Damn, I didn't realize the inuendo (I know it isn't the correct spelling) in that.

At 8/4/09 01:16 PM, Random-Her03 wrote: i can see it now, morrison is the #1 contender for the WHC, during the match, miz re-debuts on SD! and ruins morrison's chances, making a feud between the two.

AHA! Actually, that sounds exactly like something Creative would do.

At 8/4/09 08:57 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: They could bring back The Two Man Power Trip. But no, I think it's definitely DX, and they haven't put enough thought into it to swerve the audience.

Austin doesn't work anymore. Does anybody even remember that duo at this point?

It's the law of diminishing returns. DX will eventually just become like the Brothers of Destruction and team up for one week to get an insignificant pop. This is why they shouldn't put Edge and Christian back together.

Edge and Christian haven't been teamed up or associated with each other for years. DX has had like three or four reunions since 2006. Reunions work best the first time they get trotted out, but everything after yeah, it's less and less. I still think DX will get a pop or two, but the question will be how much merch can they move, or how long will this be for?

I don't understand their booking whatsoever. The only good thing that will come out of this is The Miz going to ECW or SD! to be booked better. I see him going to ECW to give them at least some talent.

It does make you wonder if maybe this was done to give Christian someone new to feud with once he's done with Dreamer.

I don't see that happening. Triple H is 40 now, and HBK is in his mid 40's, and not 100% from what I hear, so it can't be a good idea to give them a heavier schedule than everyone else.

They don't have to be on a heavy schedule necessarily, they don't really have to be on every show every week, but I've heard nothing about either one cutting back any time soon sooooo.

I guess they could use the tag team thing to rest HBK, but he'll still have to wrestle a little bit, more often than he would otherwise.

They could, but the best thing they could do really is start building people up more so they don't have to keep relying on people like him and he can be more of a special attraction. But they most probably won't, and they'll continue to need him and H around till they completely break to keep the show going.

I don't get how HHH is allowed to make those kind of smart-jokes. Did you hear the "I didn't think you did jobs" line as well? This always happens when DX are around. It's not like most of the fans know what the hell he's talking about, and it's quite detrimental if they do.

H is gonna own the company one day, so he can do whatever he wants. It's as simple as that. It's Hunter's world and everybody else is just living in it.

At 8/4/09 04:48 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: Austin doesn't work anymore. Does anybody even remember that duo at this point?

I can always hope.

Edge and Christian haven't been teamed up or associated with each other for years. DX has had like three or four reunions since 2006. Reunions work best the first time they get trotted out, but everything after yeah, it's less and less. I still think DX will get a pop or two, but the question will be how much merch can they move, or how long will this be for?

And who will they bury after they've destroyed Legacy in two weeks?

It does make you wonder if maybe this was done to give Christian someone new to feud with once he's done with Dreamer.

Whether he'll be believable is another question. He needs to be re-established, and on a brand where there's only a handful of established stars, it could be difficult. Then again, ECW tends to try their hardest and power through regardless, whereas Raw takes all the big names and makes them unimportant.

They could, but the best thing they could do really is start building people up more so they don't have to keep relying on people like him and he can be more of a special attraction. But they most probably won't, and they'll continue to need him and H around till they completely break to keep the show going.

If the past few months on Raw are an indication of what things will be like when HBK is finally gone, then it is a dim forecast.

H is gonna own the company one day, so he can do whatever he wants. It's as simple as that. It's Hunter's world and everybody else is just living in it.

I'd prefer smart-mark oriented booking over children oriented, I just wonder if it'll alienate quite a few of the fans, particularly the young ones.

At 8/4/09 04:48 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 8/4/09 08:57 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: They could bring back The Two Man Power Trip. But no, I think it's definitely DX, and they haven't put enough thought into it to swerve the audience.

Austin doesn't work anymore. Does anybody even remember that duo at this point?

Him & Trips teamed up?

At 8/4/09 07:38 PM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: I can always hope.

Just don't hold your breath. Because then you'd die :)

And who will they bury after they've destroyed Legacy in two weeks?

Pretty much. That's the real shame here, I'm not saying they need to lose every night to everyone and anyone in sight. It would wreck their cred, but you're telling me you can't find two guys you'd really like to make a little more important by letting them get one over on DX? Really?

Whether he'll be believable is another question. He needs to be re-established, and on a brand where there's only a handful of established stars, it could be difficult. Then again, ECW tends to try their hardest and power through regardless, whereas Raw takes all the big names and makes them unimportant.

ECW HAS to though. They're the developmental brand that is always going to just be thrown scraps and forced to do something with it. The fact that they can actually create some pretty good shows regardless really speaks well of their team.

As far as Miz, he's been pretty thoroughly wrecked and I think no matter what the plan is here they should probably leave him off TV till after Summerslam (since he's banned from it anyway). Then bring him back strong and hope to take some of the loser stink off him but they may have well and truly ruined him here.

If the past few months on Raw are an indication of what things will be like when HBK is finally gone, then it is a dim forecast.

Yeah, RAW is pretty vile these days and the scary thing is that's the flagship.

I'd prefer smart-mark oriented booking over children oriented, I just wonder if it'll alienate quite a few of the fans, particularly the young ones.

I think the young ones will still watch regardless. One smart comment isn't going to deter they're enjoyment. I think they'll just keep on watching and that'll blow over they're heads without much impact. They really though don't need to not market to kids. Marketing to kids is ok so long as they don't forget that stories should make sense and not be a turn off for the adult fans as well.

i watched the beginning of ECW

it looks like shelton benjamin is a babyface again. I'm kinda glad, he's been a heel for a very long time now (since the beginning of 06 i believe) and i did enjoy him when he was a babyface, specially around the time when he feuded with Evolution. Also I liked that spot where Shelton threw Ryder at the couch, looked pretty good.

*****SPOILER ALERT*****
*****SPOILER ALERT*****
*****SPOILER ALERT*****

Matt Hardy returned to SD! and i think he's a babyface again.

At 8/4/09 10:42 PM, Assi9 wrote: Him & Trips teamed up?

Case in point.

And yes, they did. This was after Wrestlemania...I want to say 17? Right? When they had Austin turn heel and join Vince. They then had him team with Triple H but the teaming was cut short by H tearing his quadricep the first time in a match they had with Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit.

By the way (slightly anebriated, may be why I ask) what the FUCK is up with Benoit apologists out there? Look, I get that the Benoit tragedy was crazy shit and it shocked us all and made us act in ways we never might have otherwise. Made some of us question our following of the business and all but...dude killed his family, this is fact. So why are there these people out there that seem to think what he did in the ring and shit absolves him of what he did? Seriously, why? Dude killed his wife and his 7 year old child. I wish it didn't happen, I was a fan of the man myself, but it did. He did it, it happened. So why the hell do people think we should be mentioning or venerating a murderer? Seriously. Can't we find somebody else to latch onto as what's good and correct about the business? How about Taker. Ok, I'll admit, I'm biased. I started watching wrestling when I was about 10, and unless I'm way off base on the development of most of us at that age, 10 is about when we all kind of thought that weird supernatural crap was the coolest shit ever. So yeah, you ask me and go "avie, who is the one wrestler who's entire body of work you're pretty much a mark for and you'd spend money on even their worst period as reported by 'smarks', who is that man?" Taker kids. Totally Taker. Man is my favorite of all time and a big reason why I'm a fan now. So yeah, that's my bias out the way. But seriously, why can't it be a guy like Taker? Best worker ever? No. But I think we can make a damn good case he's the best big man worker ever (I think Bigelow is a contender, but I disqualify him as going any higher then maybe second personally because I think one thing smarks tend to neglect when they look at "best ever" is the drawing power. Like it or lump it, you do not have to be a great worker to draw). Not to mention here's a guy who has actively MADE other people. Taker made Kane. Paul Bearer said in a recent interview if he and Taker hadn't pushed to get Glen Jacobs (that is Kane's real name) included into the act, he wouldn't have been. So simply put, Taker took a guy who had these shit gimmicks beforehand (like an evil dentist, the FUCK was Vince smoking there?) and made him a star who now has had well past a decade of bank and popularity. I think that should probably be the measure of a performer, the number of guys who he went out of his way to say "Look, I believe this guy can be something, let me have a chance to try and make him something" and then go out and prove it.

You know what? I'm calling it now. Let's go there, Taker as greatest performer of his generation. I'm asking you to agree or disagree based on the following criteria, so please agree or refute based on the following (so please include all in any rebuttal or agreeing):

Work: How well each Undertaker match has been. This does encompass each and every era of the character from his debut in 1990 to his (current) last match at Mania 25.

Promo: Well we all know what a promo is right? But here I guess you'd perhaps have to judge from when he went solo in 96 till now, did the man accomplish what he needed to when he had a mic in his hand? Did he sway you to pay for a match he'd be involved in? I think DVD should count too, but I'm willing to hear debate on that (since I understand some people might feel 'look avie, if I wasn't willing to pay full price, then the guy failed to really work as a promo', I can dig it, but I disagree. Anytime you spent money saying "I need to see this match based on how Taker presented it to me" should count).

Overall performance: This is promo, this is match quality, and this is character. So the total package. Did the fact that you would get The Undertaker in action make you say "I need this PPV/tape/ticket to a show" tip the scales for you?

Undertaker for greatest performer of his time (1990-2009) I'm putting it out there, and I'm willing to stand behind it when I sober up. Other guys drew more money, but Taker has been a constant as either a draw on his own, or as a foil for somebody who was drawing more money. Taker I think at times doesn't get the appreciation he should because he's just so goddamn good we take him for granted and we won't really and truly understand how much he gave us until he's gone.

Also, if you've never experienced that entrance live EVER, then the next time ANYTHING related to SD! ECW comes to your town and he's on that card, YOU MUST GO!!!! Seriously. There are exactly TWO performers I've ever seen who's entrance was so good it'd be BETTER then anything they'd do in a match could ever be (The other is The Sandman)...yeah, you owe it to yourself to be there for it. Undertaker is undisputably the greatest creation of Vince Mcmahon. Greatest performer of his time? (again, 1990-now) you tell me. Very interested in the answer.

Remember, if they came to prominence PRIOR to 1990, they don't count for this conversation. So it's total package, 1990-present. You got prominent before 1990? You don't count. You got prominent AFTER? You're in the conversation.

Really looking forward to hearing the answer since (no ass kissing or bullshitting involved) I think this is one of, if not the smartest group of fans I've ever run across anywhere.

I don't understand the reactions to Benoit at all.
Why is he deleted from wwe history? All his matches gone.
Will there be a day when they will be placed back in?

Yeah, he killed his family and himself and it was horrible but does that mean we should pretend that he never existed?
At the end of the day, shit happens.

We move on.

Although I love Taker, I will always put VADER ahead of him in terms of big guys that were awesome in-ring workers (Though I'll admit I'm a Vader mark).

As for who can challenge Taker for the greatest of this generation? That's pretty damn easy. A man who despise being out for 3 to 4 years still continues to put on great match after great match, a man who despite his checkered past is still (Arguably) the single greatest in-ring performer of all time (Yes, he might be ahead of Flair).. Of course, I'm talking about SHAWN MICHAELS!

For as good as Taker has been these past couple of years (As far as in-ring work is concerned), his matches weren't all that good during the early to mid 90's (It wasn't until he started having matches with the likes of Bret, Austin and yes, HBK, that people started to notice of Taker's in-ring abilities), though I will admit that when you're feuding with the likes of Yoko, Nash and Giant Gonzalez you can't put on classic matches.

Back to Shawn, here's a couple of his matches that were flat-out great (With the date included for those that may want to check them out).

The Rockers vs The Brainbusters (3/18/89)
The Rockers vs The Hart Foundation (Various dates)
The Rockers vs The Orient Express (Various dates)

Yes, I'm starting with the tag matches. This is when people started noticing that this Shawn guy was pretty damn good.

vs Mr. Perfect (3/17/91)... One of Shawn's earlier single matches, and he managed to hang with another awesome in-ring performer. This is still only the tip of the iceberg.

vs Bret Hart (11/25/92).. I believe this was Shawn's first time main eventing a PPV (It was Survivor Series, by the way) and Michaels did not disappoint as he went toe-to-toe with the champ and they put on their best match together. Of course, Shawn and Bret would be involved in a fairly big moment at SvS some years later.

vs Marty Jannetty (1/24/93/Royal Rumble 93).. This was a match that was more than 1 year in the making after Shawn turned on Marty. They went on to steal the show with their match.

vs Marty Jannetty (7/19/93).. If they stole the show at the Rumble, then on this night they decided to tear the house down. Marty had the best mach of his life, and of course, Shawn did his usual great job.

vs Razor Ramon (3/20/94/Wrestlemania X). This was a Ladder Match. You might have heard of this one. It was ahead of its time, and although it doesn't hold up well (At least when compared to the Dudleyz/E & C/Hardys ladder matches), its still for many THE defining ladder match.. Here's the fun part, it wasn't their best ladder match.

The Royal Rumble 95 :Shawn was the first entrant in the Rumble, and still won the match after British Bulldog thought he had gotten rid of Michales. Shawn skinned the cat and threw out BB for his first Royal Rumble victory, and his most impressive RR performance to date.

vs Jeff Jarrett (7/23/95). Much as he did with Razor and Jannetty, Michaels once again found himself being a part of someone else's greatest match. This time it was JJ. This happened at the second In Your House PPV, and Shawn won the match and the IC Title (At this point I started realizing that HBK was pretty damn good).

vs Razor Ramon (8/27/95). The OTHER Ladder Match, which I've always thought was better than their first. In this match, both men learned from theor previous encounter and avoided the spots that had damaged them the first time around (Psychology in a ladder match? Yes, it can be done).

vs Owen Hart (Can't remember the exact date, thought it was on RAW). This match was decent, but its mostly remembered for the Enziguiri by Owen and Shawn's AWESOME selling job as he had everyone believing that he was badly injured. I remember hating Owen for a long time after that :(

vs Owen Hart (2/18/96). Now THIS match was ace. This would be the return bout after Owen took him out. Shawn put up his WM title shot on the line and won. At this point, Shawn was pretty much unable to put on a bad match.

vs Bret Hart (3/31/96/Wrestlemania XII). Now just a great match, but two of the most memorable moments in the past 20 years. Shawn coming down on a zipline from the rafters, and Shawn hitting that second SCM (Vince:Michaels got all of it!) to win his first title. The childhood dream has come true, for Shawn Michaels.

vs Diesel (4/28/96). This was a No Holds Barred Match and SURPRISE! Shawn leads Diesel to the best match of his life. This took place at IYH:Good Friends, Better Enemies. Worth tracking down just to see Diesel actually try inside the ring.

vs British Bulldog (6/23/96). One of Bulldog's better matches in his career (Only his match against Bret at Wembley and his match against Owen for the Euro Title were as good as this one). This one happened at King of The Ring, and it was probably the closest Bulldog came to winning the WWF Title.

vs Vader (8/18/96). According to legend, Vader was supposed to win the strap here. Michaels threw a hissy fit and ended up retaining the title... But only after Vader's best match in WWE (SURPRISE!) which had Michaels selling like a mad-man for the big guy.

vs Mankind (9/22/96). The match that Mick Foley himself calls the favorite match of his career. Probably Foley's best straight up singles match, and probably the best WWF match in 96.

W/ Steve Austin vs Owen Hart & British Bulldog (5/26/97). At the time, this was arguably the best tag-team match I'd ever seen. It was one of the first time where we had partners that didn't get along (Sup, Russo?)

vs The Undertaker (10/5/97). One of Taker's first truly great matches. This was also the first HIAC (And still the best, as far as I'm concerned) and it had Shawn winning the match after Kane made his debut and Tombstoned Taker. Most wrestling publications and/or critics had this as the best match of 97.

vs Bret Hart (11/9/97). A rabid crowd, Shawn was at the top of his game as Canada wanted to kill him. A match that gets no love due to some small incident that happened afterwards (Which might have led to the most successful period in WWF/WWE history).

vs The Undertaker (1/18/98). This was the famous (Infamous?) Casket Match where Shawn injured his back. The best Casket Match in WWF history.

vs Steve Austin (3/29/98). Decent match, but an important one since it was the "passing of the torch" to Austin. This was also Shawn's last wrestling match. Until...

vs HHH (8/25/02). After being away for four years, Shawn comes back and looks just as good (If not better) as he did during the 90's. On a LOADED Summerslam card, he manages to steal the show once again.

vs HHH, RVD, Booker T, Kane & Chris Jericho (11/17/02). Shawn wins his last World Title (Up until this point) and puts on a show-stopping (SEE WHAT I DID THERE!) performance in the first ever Elimination Chamber match.

And, the rest...

vs Jericho (WM 19)

11/16/03.. This was at Survivor Series. Shawn was the only guy left on his team and he almost single-handedly won the match. He ultimately lost to Orton (with some help from Batista) but managed to once again steal the show.

vs HHH (12/29/03). His best match against HHH. This happened on the last RAW of 03, and although it had a screwy finish, it didn't prevent it from being one of the best matches in 2003.

Continued in the next post.

vs Benoit (2/16/04). Yes, Shawn wrestled a guy who never existed to a 4 star match. If wrestling yourself doesn't make you the greatest of this generation, nothing will (Seriously, it was a great match).

vs Benoit & HHH (3/14/04). I'm sure Avie is going to love seeing this one here. Looking at this from a straight up wrestling standpoint, this was arguably the greatest Triple Threat Match of all time (Danielson vs Daniels vs Ki from ROH's first show might be better), and although... things have changed, at the time it gave us one of WM's greatest moments.

vs Benoit & HHH (4/18/04). The rematch, and almost as good as the first one.

vs Kurt Angle (4/3/05). One of Kurt's two greatest matches in WWE (The other one being against... THE UNDERTAKER) and the show-stealer at WM 21.

vs Shelton Benjamin (5/2/05). This was Shelton's.. wait for it.. GREATEST MATCH OF HIS CAREER! This was during the Gold Rush tournament, and it is mostly remembered for the finish, which had Shelton Springboarding.. right into some Sweet Chin Music.

vs Kurt Angle (6/26/05). The rematch, not as good as their Wrestlemania match, but still great.

vs Hulk Hogan (8/21/05). Do you believe in miracles? If not, you will after watching this match. Shawn bumps like a maniac and gives Hogan his last truly entertaining match.

vs Vince McMahon (4/2/06). What can I say? He carried Vince to a great match at WM. No one is supposed to do that!

vs John Cena (4/1/07). Shawn helps Cena put on his best WM match up to this point... Of course, they would do better than this in the near future.

vs John Cena (4/23/07). At 42 years young, Shawn puts on a classic against Cena as both men go for almost an hour (It was about 56 minutes).

vs Cena vs Orton vs Edge (4/29/07). This was a Four Way which took place at Backlash. Once again, Shawn found himself in the best match on the show, and played a big part in the finish of the match.

vs Ric Flair (3/30/08). I'm sorry, I love you. Greatest match, greatest moment of 2008. Shawn is given the honored of ending the career of who many consider the greatest of all time.

vs Chris Jericho (Various dates). This was the feud of the year for 2008. They had singles, a Ladder, and an Unsanctioned match, each one being better than the last. At 43, Shawn was still part of the best thing going in WWE.

vs The Undertaker (4/5/09). A match that the majority of people started calling the MOTY as soon as it ended. As fate would have it, HBK faced the guy that Avie considers the greatest generation. If anything, this match proved that they're the top two.

Promos: Not a lot of memorable ones (Surprisingly). Though he's had some good ones (Like the one where he fooled Canada into thinkinig Bret was going to show up) in his career. As a face, he made you want to buy PPV's to see him win, as a heel, he made you want to buy PPV's in the hopes that he would get his ass kicked. Seems to me like he did his job well.

Though I'm a fan of Taker, I've always felt that most of his promos have consisted of the same things (I will take your soul, dance with the devil and whatnot), except during his American Bad-Ass persona where he pretty damn good.

Ultimately, it comes down to the wrestling (Which would probably piss Vince off) as the reason that Shawn gets the nod. He's carried more people to their best outings in the ring than any other performer in history. He's made people feel sad, happy, angry all without changing a lot about his wrestling persona. The guy missed 4 years, and still has an impressive array of performances to his credit.

The biggest knock against him is that he used his backstage pull to influence certain decisions. However, even knowing this it doesn't change the fact that when Shawn Michaels was on the card, more often than not it would be his match that people remembered. He always managed to put on a great show. You can call him The Icon, Mr Wrestlemania, The Showstopper or anything else. As for me? I'm content with calling him the greatest in-ring performer I've ever seen in my life.

That's about it.

At 8/5/09 03:16 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Work: How well each Undertaker match has been. This does encompass each and every era of the character from his debut in 1990 to his (current) last match at Mania 25.

Nowadays he's one of the best, especially for a big guy. I'm impressed every time he jumps over the top rope. I didn't watch wrestling when he was first around (I would've been one when he debuted), but I heard he wasn't very good in comparison to now, and then when you consider people like Bret, HBK, Y2J, and such, I'd say they're definitely better than he is.

Sometimes his gimmick and size limits him in terms of the opponents he gets, too. HBK wouldn't be placed into a casket match with Mark Henry (even though he could probably drag a passable match out of it).

One thing you can say though, he's up there with Michaels and Jericho in terms of understanding wrestling and knowing how to put great matches together.

There's alot of variation in the quality of his matches too. You give him the right opponent, and he can have an absolute classic, but he can't necessarily drag a good match out of a Khali. Just look at his Wrestlemania streak. If you look at HBK though, he had a near 60-minute classic with Cena (I see pep mentioned it), and he's had good matches with much worse opposition.

Promo: Well we all know what a promo is right? But here I guess you'd perhaps have to judge from when he went solo in 96 till now, did the man accomplish what he needed to when he had a mic in his hand? Did he sway you to pay for a match he'd be involved in? I think DVD should count too, but I'm willing to hear debate on that (since I understand some people might feel 'look avie, if I wasn't willing to pay full price, then the guy failed to really work as a promo', I can dig it, but I disagree. Anytime you spent money saying "I need to see this match based on how Taker presented it to me" should count).

Again, his gimmick is the thing that limits him, but is also his saving grace. The Rock was probably the best I've seen on the mic, and Taker can't compare. But who knows how good he could be on the mic if he didn't have his gimmick?

Then again, the promos suit his persona perfectly. They without a doubt create a buzz around his matches, and definitely give Taker the aura he has. It's just unfortunate they're so different to all other promos so it's really difficult to compare.

Overall performance: This is promo, this is match quality, and this is character. So the total package. Did the fact that you would get The Undertaker in action make you say "I need this PPV/tape/ticket to a show" tip the scales for you?

He has one of the most interesting characters. It really works: While everybody else's gimmicks are quite understated, because over the top, out of this world gimmicks died out with the Attitude era, Taker has really took his supernatural gimmick, and with minimal changes, really made it his own, and made it legendary. And because of that, he really stands out, and his work rate makes that a very good thing.

You can consider things other than his character, work and promos. If you look at HBK (who is his only real competition for greatest of this generation), he has quite a clouded past. He was integral in the Montreal Screwjob, he lost his smile, and he was just a big baby during the start of his run. He also politiked alot to get where he is, whereas Taker has become like the Don in the locker room, due to hard work and being respectable. It's impressive that he got this far without ever having to be a kiss-ass.

I don't know much about promotions outside of WWE either. Sting is the biggest name in wrestling never to have wrestled for the WWE, but I know practically nothing about him. Is he up there with Taker and HBK?

At 8/5/09 09:06 AM, Shaun wrote: I don't understand the reactions to Benoit at all.
Why is he deleted from wwe history? All his matches gone.

I know he's being mentioned in title histories and I believe his bouts still appear on those anthology sets that want to be the complete event. But there won't be anymore best ofs or anything that "features" him and that is as it should be. The guy murdered his family, MURDERED HIS FUCKING FAMILY!!! Doesn't matter what he did as a performer, there's no excuse for that and there's no way to justify to the general public why you're company would want to glorify a murderer. Benoit destroyed the good he did in the business over three days.

Will there be a day when they will be placed back in?

Unless they find out he didn't do it? No. They've slowly re-entered his name and such into title histories and stuff, and there are people that use his work as a positive example, but like I say WWE will never be featuring the guy's work or anything related to him again because it would send a bad message about them.

Yeah, he killed his family and himself and it was horrible but does that mean we should pretend that he never existed?

What I don't understand is the people who almost seem like apologists to that and think we should still be "honoring" this guy even after all that. I agree you shouldn't completely erase him from history. But any attempt to profit off of him, or to try and "redeem" him is just flat out wrong.

At the end of the day, shit happens.

This isn't just shit happens. He ended the life of a child. Even in prison among hardened criminals those who commit crimes against children are considered a whole other breed of scumbag.

We move on.

At 8/5/09 12:58 PM, pepeatumi wrote: vs Benoit & HHH (3/14/04). I'm sure Avie is going to love seeing this one here. Looking at this from a straight up wrestling standpoint, this was arguably the greatest Triple Threat Match of all time (Danielson vs Daniels vs Ki from ROH's first show might be better), and although... things have changed, at the time it gave us one of WM's greatest moments.

I think the best three way match I've ever seen was the original 3 way between Douglas, Funk, and Sabu that ended in a 60 minute draw. Even though not everybody worked the whole 60 minutes, it was a lot better then the standard WWE formula of one guy being knocked out of the ring to disappear for like 10 minutes, then to come back in and knock somebody else out for 10 minutes or so. So I'm gonna disagree that this was the best ever and stand behind the originator of this match type as being the best. It set up the template and the kind of spots and stuff that are still duplicated today.

At 8/5/09 03:16 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: By the way (slightly anebriated, may be why I ask) what the FUCK is up with Benoit apologists out there? Look, I get that the Benoit tragedy was crazy shit and it shocked us all and made us act in ways we never might have otherwise. Made some of us question our following of the business and all but...dude killed his family, this is fact. So why are there these people out there that seem to think what he did in the ring and shit absolves him of what he did? Seriously, why? Dude killed his wife and his 7 year old child. I wish it didn't happen, I was a fan of the man myself, but it did. He did it, it happened. So why the hell do people think we should be mentioning or venerating a murderer? Seriously. Can't we find somebody else to latch onto as what's good and correct about the business?

Look at how people are still fans of Michael Jackson and are trying to absolve him by his singing career; still doesn't hide the fact he was a child molester.

Like me, people are probably still somewhat unable to wrap their heads around what Benoit did. There's also the point that he had the brain of an 80-year-old with Alzheimer's, so it's hard for one to say he was in the right frame of mind when he did it. It's hard for me to realize the facts when I still can't help but remember him for who he was prior, and who all of the other wrestlers said he was prior, because it just seems so horribly contrasting - as if something seriously wrong happened to make him do it.

Do I even make a little sense?

You know what? I'm calling it now. Let's go there, Taker as greatest performer of his generation.

Sadly, as awesome as he is, I have to agree with pepe & give that honor to Shawn Michaels. He's awesome in-ring, he rarely has a bad time on the mic, he draws crowds like no one else I've seen, and anyone in the ring with him at any one time automatically has some level of greatness bestowed upon him just for being there. May have pissed some people off along the line, but it's still hard to argue.

As far as the Benoit situation goes, I'm in two minds about it really.

While what he did can be in no way justified, erasing him from history just isn't an option. At the end of the day you can ignore it all you want but the proof remains. Hard Knocks: The Chris Benoit Story is still around (and a damn good watch if you can put aside what he did when watching it (especially the documentary)), as are his matches on DVD's released before mid-2005.

When it comes to including him on post-2005 material, I think your in a tricky situation. Obviously to do it immediately after June 2005 would be hugely insensitive and inappropriate, but time as passed, and life goes on. It's been four years since it happened and about time we started inserting him back into history in my opinion. Obviously a DVD featuring his greatest matches (ala Hard Knocks) is out of the question but putting a match he was in on a DVD set about another wrestler is fine in my opinion. For example, if a Kurt Angle DVD is released by WWE, he had some of his best ever matches with Benoit and I think it would be a huge shame if these were overlooked because of something that happened after the match, and now in the past. Angle had no control over the situation, why should his DVD not feature a great match because of it?

I know some people will forever think of Benoit as an evil monster who killed his wife and child, and to a certain extent I agree. But to pretend that he never stepped into a WWE ring is stupid. He did, we all know, and nothing is being accomplished by pretending otherwise. Whatever the guy may have done, he was a top class performer. Do we wipe over history when it comes to other murderers? Pretend they never existed? There are books and documentary's that go into great detail of people like Hitler, Bin Laden, etc and the murders they committed. A wrestling DVD would simply feature Benoit's matches, not talk about the tragic events that happened after them.

At 8/6/09 04:17 AM, Assi9 wrote: Look at how people are still fans of Michael Jackson and are trying to absolve him by his singing career; still doesn't hide the fact he was a child molester.

At least with Jackson people who are fans of his can point to the fact he was never CONVICTED of any wrong doing there. The court of public opinion found him guilty, but he was never actually found guilty in a court of law. No such loophole exists for Benoit

Like me, people are probably still somewhat unable to wrap their heads around what Benoit did. There's also the point that he had the brain of an 80-year-old with Alzheimer's, so it's hard for one to say he was in the right frame of mind when he did it. It's hard for me to realize the facts when I still can't help but remember him for who he was prior, and who all of the other wrestlers said he was prior, because it just seems so horribly contrasting - as if something seriously wrong happened to make him do it.

I believe he was mentally ill, but I also have to agree with WWE's pre-emptive defense of themselves to not understand how he could have the brain of an 80 year old with alzheimers and still function. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and makes me want a better explanation of the science their using to arrive at such a conclusion. You have to have something wrong with you to kill anyway, as any deviation from the societal "norm" can usually be attributed to some difference in your phisiology. But I do have to wonder if the SLI guys kind of sensationalized the result a bit since all eyes were on them at the time. But I don't doubt he had brain damage, the question then becomes do you believe that absolves him enough that you can look beyond what he's done. Also there's the fact that we only have SLI putting this result out there and nobody else independently backed it up.

Do I even make a little sense?

Oh sure. But I think there's other factors to consider here, and when you do consider those factors it becomes easy as hell for me to see why WWE would consider the topic of Benoit something they don't want to really touch or continue to bring up. Kind of like how you don't hear a lot of mention of OJ in football. You don't want to appear insensitive, and if public sentiment of a figure is overwhelmingly negative, you don't risk associating yourself too closely with that figure.

Sadly, as awesome as he is, I have to agree with pepe & give that honor to Shawn Michaels. He's awesome in-ring, he rarely has a bad time on the mic, he draws crowds like no one else I've seen, and anyone in the ring with him at any one time automatically has some level of greatness bestowed upon him just for being there. May have pissed some people off along the line, but it's still hard to argue.

Yeah, I see it. I guess I'd just like to see more people give Taker credit for the example he sets. He's kind of been underrated as a worker I think. But more importantly he's a guy that I feel does business the right way, and has the guts to stand up to the promoter even though he knows he has no guarantee other then the work he's done and the money he's made to back that up (Vince got punched in Montreal because Taker banged on his door and told him "you need to go apologize right now for what you did). Shawn is a great performer, but has traditionally been a fairly lousy human being to work with. Taker not so much.

I'd definitely agree with Avie on Taker being what drew me into the WWF/E when I first started watching and his performances have been consistent over the years. I'd rank him in my top 5 wrestlers of all time list.

As for Benoit, I've got mixed emotions about this. On one hand I can't help but remember his role in the wrestling world and his quality of matches he always put on. On the other hand what he did outside of the ring will forever brand him as a monster. But even with that he was suffering from severe brain damage and wasn't in his right mind. It's a tough line to fully understand. Still I can't totally forgive and forget the terrible thing done no matter how much I liked his matches.

A TLC match between Punk and Hardy.. I might actually order Summerslam.

SD was once again the best wrestling show of the week.

Punk's opening promo was awesome (As usual), and he was getting a shitload of boos near the end of it. I love how he can get heel heat without even raising his voice.

Kidd vs Morrison was on-par with their excellent match that they had on Superstars last week, and the Starship Pain looked nasty as Morrison landed knees first into Kidd's face. Haas vs Slam Master J was... Well, it was there. I thought Haas actually looked better in the match than Jesse.

The four-way was fun even if Ziggler winning was a bit predictable. I did like that Knox managed to look good since I think he's severly underutilized on SD. Jericho vs JTG was much better than expected and it was easily the best match I've ever seen be a part of. Didn't really mind him winning the match since Cryme Tyme need to look credible before the tag-match at SS.

Khali vs Ortiz was just there to further the Kane/Khali feud. They've actually built this up quite well... Of course, that won't stop the match from sucking all kinds of ass when it happens. I'm just hoping they don't put it on PPV (I still haven't recovered from their "epic match" at Wrestlemania 23).

Punk vs Hardy was decent, but you couldn't expected to go all out on free tv. Matt played his role well (Not really backing up either man) and actually looked a lot bulkier. The post-match attack was just more awesomeness by Punk and the chair into the ring post just looked NASTY!

Punk's line "Make sure he's OK! Fix him so I can break him again", just made him look like even more of a dick.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I might have to order this PPV just for the Punk/Hardy match. This is by far the best thing going today in WWE.

At 8/7/09 11:11 PM, pepeatumi wrote: Punk vs Hardy was decent, but you couldn't expected to go all out on free tv. Matt played his role well (Not really backing up either man) and actually looked a lot bulkier.

The last I heard, Matt's stomach was falling out, so I doubt he can exercise. It also made me wince when he took the baseball slide to the stomach.

Makes me wonder if Matt is going to come back to do something with his brother before he leaves, or what. I don't know how long it'll take for his injury to heal, either.

At 8/8/09 08:29 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: Makes me wonder if Matt is going to come back to do something with his brother before he leaves, or what. I don't know how long it'll take for his injury to heal, either.

Matt is back in training, but it might still be a bit of time before he wrestles on tv.
Not really sure where they are going with it, could be a full 180 turn back to face for matt hardy to feud against punk after Summerslam when Jeff leaves.
Matt Hardy seems to think he is in line for a world title run soon from his twitter updates and stuff, I can't see it happening but ah well, time will tell.

I just watched what I could stand of TNA impact, god that is a terrible show.
I think there was 3 matches in total, one of which was a knock-outs match with nameless women I had no idea who they were apart from taylor wilde.
Pretaped interviews and promos that were so boring, a backstage brawl that went way to long.
I heard their 200th episode was really good, so I gave this week a watch but it was horrible.
Worst wrestling program ever.

While I will say that The Undertaker is one of the best things to happen to the WWE, I can't entirely agree that he's the best during his generation, I'll have to agree that Shawn Michaels is the best of their time.. something about the guy is just legendary, great wrestling ability, great with the mic, and he also knows how to get the people interested with whatever he's doing, even when in feuds with crappy wrestlers, he still manages to make the matches somewhat interesting. Also since his comeback in 02.. every one of his WM matches have been memorable, while Taker has had a few forgettable WM matches (A-Train, Mark Henry...). Still Taker is pretty good, the deadman character really does work for him, the character does make storylines interesting, even though i prefer the American Badass gimmick.

WWE.com made the following announcement this evening:

Ricky Ortiz released
Written: August 8, 2009

WWE has come to terms on the release of SmackDown Superstar Ricky Ortiz as of today, Aug. 8, 2009. We wish Ricky the best in all future endeavors.

At 8/8/09 09:39 PM, idiot-buster wrote: WWE has come to terms on the release of SmackDown Superstar Ricky Ortiz as of today, Aug. 8, 2009. We wish Ricky the best in all future endeavors.

meh.. i could see why wwe made that choice.

At 8/8/09 09:39 PM, idiot-buster wrote: WWE.com made the following announcement this evening:

Ricky Ortiz released
Written: August 8, 2009

WWE has come to terms on the release of SmackDown Superstar Ricky Ortiz as of today, Aug. 8, 2009. We wish Ricky the best in all future endeavors.

This is one of those releases where i'm not feeling sorry for the guy they let go. I'm not saying Ortiz was bad, it was just that the WWE really wasn't doing anything with the guy. Sure he was getting a decent paycheck but at least now he can better himself by going to other promotions and getting more experience. I think in a few years after he has roamed around for a bit and gotten some world experience he may be a better asset for promotions like WWE. He was decent on the mic but his in ring skills needed some fine tuning and I think this might be a good way for him to grow as a performer.

At 8/7/09 11:11 PM, pepeatumi wrote: A TLC match between Punk and Hardy.. I might actually order Summerslam.

I'll probably buy the DVD! :)

SD was once again the best wrestling show of the week.

By FAAAAAAR.

Punk's opening promo was awesome (As usual), and he was getting a shitload of boos near the end of it. I love how he can get heel heat without even raising his voice.

I think Punk has really really matured as a performer over his time in WWE. He's learned that with the type of character he does he doesn't need to scream at the crowd, call them names, tell them to go fuck themselves or any of the other more bombastic stuff he used to do. He can be calm, smug, and self assured and people will absolutely hate him.

Kidd vs Morrison was on-par with their excellent match that they had on Superstars last week, and the Starship Pain looked nasty as Morrison landed knees first into Kidd's face. Haas vs Slam Master J was... Well, it was there. I thought Haas actually looked better in the match than Jesse.

Kidd and Morrison was a very very competitive match and I think it really points out why the Dynasty should be pushed a bit more strongly then they are. They've got real talent and potential there, don't destroy or waste it. I'm just happy they finally got J in the ring and are moving slowly beyond the whole "Cryme Tyme does word up, J shows up, J gets trashed/ditched/punked. Rinse and repeat next week". It's long ago worn out it's welcome, let's go to the next level with this idea, and if there is no next level, drop it already (they seem to have mercy killed pretty ricky).

The four-way was fun even if Ziggler winning was a bit predictable. I did like that Knox managed to look good since I think he's severly underutilized on SD. Jericho vs JTG was much better than expected and it was easily the best match I've ever seen be a part of. Didn't really mind him winning the match since Cryme Tyme need to look credible before the tag-match at SS.

I had to agree with JR that while the four-way was good, given a bit more time it could have been something a bit better. I do think this once again points out how much WWE has dropped the ball when it comes to the US title as they could easily be having these sorts of bouts on RAW to make Kofi and his belt look like something talent wants to chase after. Like people want to be where Kofi is. It's ridiculous that this can happen when two shows are produced by the same company.

Agreed on JTG beating Jericho. Even think it was the right member of Cryme Tyme to do so. For awhile it seemed like Shad was the guy they were really high on in that duo but I've heard he's showing a general lake of ability to really learn anything new. I had no problem with the match, won't hurt Jericho and now people will think Cryme Tyme at least might have a chance of winning.

Khali vs Ortiz was just there to further the Kane/Khali feud. They've actually built this up quite well... Of course, that won't stop the match from sucking all kinds of ass when it happens. I'm just hoping they don't put it on PPV (I still haven't recovered from their "epic match" at Wrestlemania 23).

Make it the free tv dark match or some such....good place to bring up Ortiz being released I think: Gave him a lot of chances, he wasn't connecting, wasn't getting better. If he's serious he'll go out and hone his craft and come back, if not, well least he's not taking up TV time anymore.

Punk vs Hardy was decent, but you couldn't expected to go all out on free tv. Matt played his role well (Not really backing up either man) and actually looked a lot bulkier. The post-match attack was just more awesomeness by Punk and the chair into the ring post just looked NASTY!

I really liked the match, the work was good, they told a good story, and the finish created a legit reason to go to SS. Matt did a great job but I'm sure he won't be happy with how he looked on TV. I also think he's nuts to have taken that baseball slide after surgery he had. Matt Hardy is a tougher man then I am. Great job here and that TLC should with any luck be the match where Punk breaks away and never looks back at the middle of the pack.

Punk's line "Make sure he's OK! Fix him so I can break him again", just made him look like even more of a dick.

It was beautiful, also blocking the stretcher and making them go around. Punk looked like an absolute scumbag coming out of that, Edge might actually be happy he's coming back as a face at the end of this because Punk seems to just get better and better every week with being a heel.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I might have to order this PPV just for the Punk/Hardy match. This is by far the best thing going today in WWE.

Absolutely, and it's such a simple storyline with a simple premise. This is what they need to do more of, create an issue, build it up, and then get into a big match to blow it off.