As for Flair's retirement countdown, I hope that the company let Edge end it since Edge is the biggest asshole in human history. Seriously, can you image the heat that Edge will get if he ends Flair's career?

I watch a great match between Miz/Morrisson & Wang Yang/Moore, and I end up watching 2 tons of crap the rest of the way........

First, Shelton Benjamin takes out a jobber who's only graduated out of high school & has this as his first match...... DOES ANYONE SEE HOW RETARDED THAT IS? Can't they give him a better jobber than that guy!?

Second, Nunzio's credibility goes further down the toilet by not only wearing an elf suit, also jobbing to another jobber. Is it just me, or is there something wrong for there being such a thing as a JOBBER-JOBBER?

Third, Chavo Guererro shows up. On ECW, as if the franchise doesn't ALREADY have any problems..... We need Chavo on ECW like a hole in the sac.

As you can see, I'm not pleased about tonight.

JBL proved to me that he would do anything to get himself over as a heel the second he did the nazi walk at a show in GERMANY. After that, I believed that when he feuded with someone, they were gonna be a big name.

So chavo has finally come back to TV. ECW seems like a strange choice to me. But on the bright side at least we know that he and Punk could put on some decent matches.

Anyone else feel bad for Nunzio?

At 12/19/07 10:43 AM, Outlaw88 wrote: So chavo has finally come back to TV. ECW seems like a strange choice to me. But on the bright side at least we know that he and Punk could put on some decent matches.

Anyone else feel bad for Nunzio?

Nunzio was a jobber back when he was on the SD! roster. He maybe a decent wrestler, but what gimmick do you give him? In today's industry, no gimmick = no sucess, it is as simple as that.

At 12/17/07 09:12 PM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote:
I thought it was just as long as he had the title during that particular reign, and it's not the WWE would remember something like that. Fingers crossed though.

It was just during that little title reign.

At 12/19/07 10:11 AM, PantyWipe wrote: JBL proved to me that he would do anything to get himself over as a heel the second he did the nazi walk at a show in GERMANY. After that, I believed that when he feuded with someone, they were gonna be a big name.

Which again, this was a guy that was a MID-CARD TAG WRESTLER, pushed to the main event out of nowhere, did an overly boring promo, and was then handed the title. He did NOT improve business, he did NOT improve ratings while he was champion, and to me that was a pretty horrible time overall for SD! with Kurt as the blase GM, and JBL his ass monkey champion. Did JBL grow into being decent? yes, yes he did, but a main eventer? No, I've never bought him as a main eventer because he isn't that good in the ring, and he's never been terribly interesting to me on the mic. A lot of his stuff is cheap heat stuff, and cheap heat just dosen't interest me unless you're going to do cheap heat to get the initial boos then you'll build it into something. I mean, The Dudley's in ECW are a great example of that. They would start with cheap heat, and then keep going till the audience wanted them dead.

Example from a show at the Ag Hall I attended that they worked:

Bubba: "Allentown is full of whores!!"

D-Von: "Wait a minute Bubba, wait a minute!! Allentown is pretty hardcore...for a bunch of lowlife, inbred, no good pieces of shit"

Bubba: "Oh shut up you pussies! You wanna fight, come on! Somebody hop the rail and let's do it!"

Then they'd goad somebody. Cheap heat for the most part, but it works. I hate JBL as a person from everything I've heard about him, it's obvious he's only going back out there cause he's a mark for the business, and a mark for himself. But that dosen't change that I have never felt the man is all that great, and that I feel all that he's accomplished is simply because he's tight with the boss. Talking to other fans I know the feeling is mutual, and I've followed the business very closely for years now, during JBL's reign those were some of the worst drawing and creatively awful PPV's and title matches in history, and I think booking him always having to cheat to win never allowed him to gain any real credibility.

Talking to other fans I know the feeling is mutual, and I've followed the business very closely for years now, during JBL's reign those were some of the worst drawing and creatively awful PPV's and title matches in history

Indeed. I believe only Diesel's title run was even worse than JBL's run. Now, I dislike JBL as a person, he's always come of as a bully and someone who doesn't mind kissing ass to get to the top. As an entertainer, I'm a fan of his. I think he's good on the mic, and he wrestles like a poor man's Stan Hansen which is good enough for me.

But I've never been able to buy JBL as a main-eventer. He shows up one week, has a new gimmick and just skyrockets to the top of WWE in a blink of an eye. Other than being employed with the E for a long time, I see no reason why he should have been given the belt.

Now, here's the deal Red. You're right, he can get heat from any fans... But that doesn't translate to buys and it doesn't translate to being a good champion. There's a difference between being over and being a draw... And simply put, JBL has never and probably never will be a draw.

At 12/20/07 09:08 AM, The-Redangleprince wrote: JBLs' drawing power and his effect on ratings on PPV Buys. Until we get some solid numbers in here to compare, its a matter of opinion. I believe he did, Aview and Pepe, you disagree. I'm okay with that.

You'd have to be because like you say, without having numbers to compare shows he headlined and TV ratings from when he was champ vs. when he wasn't, it's impossible to concretely say he drew or didn't. I think it's bullshit anyway to blame the success or failure of a show on one guy anyway, and I'm not trying to do that here, I'd say the creative direction hurts everything being done since Steph took over. But if you put the belt on someone, and ratings go down, or don't go up, then I do think you can say that at least SOME of that blame must go on the guy, or you can at least say "this guy is not drawing people to watch". I don't believe JBL is a guy people want to pay to see get shut up. I believe they might watch him on free tv get shut up, but they wouldn't buy a ticket or a PPV with that purpose in mind. Even more casual people. But it's hard to quantify casuals as well because a lot of casuals are programmable marks that Pavlov whatever the promotion in question wants them to do.

JBLs reign being only slightlty better than Diesels? Wow, thats harsh, but I can name a few that were worse before JBL (Sid, Jericho, Goldberg), and a couple afterwards too (Mysterio, Khali). In my opinion, JBL had a comparable run to most other champs in the past 5 years. Again, without numbers, thats just an opinion.

Those reigns were also garbage, but to my mind for a lot of the same reason: The champion was made to look unworthy, to look like a fluke and a joke and that is how JBL came off to me as well. ALL his victories were bullshit screw jobs, and I never believed he was worthy or worth it. WWE should have built him better, instead of just making him champion practically out of nowhere. And, oh wait! There's ANOTHER parable to Diesel really, because Diesel went from Tag Champ to WWE champ within a DAY, it's just that Diesel at least had had the IC title a couple times before that. JBL went from lifetime tag wrestler and mid-carder into insta-main eventer.

From an in-ring perspective, you've got to take his style into account. Hes got an ol school style similar to, as Pepe pointed out, Stan Hansen. If you don't like that style, its difficult to like JBL, but I think JBLs' style had a place in the WWE, and its a style that I enjoy watching. In that aspect, he was good at what he did. He had some great matches with Eddie and Taker, and a few decent ones with Show and Booker.

Hansen and his generation though knew how to make that style work, and knew how to really tell a story with the match. I don't feel JBL does. He had good matches with Eddie and Taker? Really? Wow cause I mean, nobody can do that, that takes a special kind of worker right there...oh wait...no it dosen't. Booker is another one that as long as he's motivated and in there, he can have a good match with anybody. Plus, your forgetting the disaster with Batista, and yes, I know Batista is tough to work with, especially if he has the boo boo face, but it CAN be done. Plus, Batista is a top guy like it or lump it, if your having bad matches with him, you shouldn't be in a top position. You have to be able to work with the top if your at the top.

As a main eventer, I'll agree, it was tough to buy JBL as the champ for a long time, but I can look back now and disagree with myself. Understanding that Smackdown was desperate talent wise and was very low on heels, JBL emerged and shined.

I don't remember it being all that desperate, they had Booker then, they had Eddie, they had Taker. They had Angle temporarily injured, but then he got back in there. The bottom line is they had other options, but they kept it on JBL because he's Vince's boy, and politics matters huge in that company. Merit did not play into it.

And finally on the count of heat, again its opinion. However, I'm appealing to the fact that JBL could get heat from the majority, the casual fan. The casual fan doesn't know anything about the Dudleys from ECW, nor can they tell the difference between even cheap heat and legit heat. And besides, I'm not so sure you could call everything JBL did cheap heat.

No, not everything, he did eventually grow into being a decent heel, somewhat entertaining, but everything he did at the very beginning was cheap heat. Which to me is proof he shouldn't have been champion because he wasn't ready. The world champion should always be your best or second best heel (because hey, sometimes you need to get that belt on somebody to get them up that next level) or your best, or second best babyface (same reason as above). JBL wasn't even close to top heel or even second top heel, he should never have had the belt.

And thats basically all I can say on the subject. In the end I know its going to come down "Agree to disagree", but I think that it was worth debating and it has been pretty interesting.

I think it does unless you have numbers to debate drawing power, because we'll never be able to conclusively settle that without the numbers posted up. But I feel I can safely say the guy should not have been champion, if not ever, then at least not when the belt was given to him.

I also stand by I don't see this feud as really doing anything for Jericho, hey, I hope they surprise me, but I just see this as another step down for Jericho.

Actually... I do have some numbers.

http://corporate.wwe.com/investors/docum ents/KeyBusinessDrivers_111.pdf

Look at the first quarter of the PPV buys (When JBL was champ) and you'll notice that WWE had less PPV buys than they did during the 2nd through 4th quarter of the same year (After JBL lost the title to Cena).

It seems to me that buys went up by a fairly big margin after JBL lose the title... and yes, I have this much free time on my hands >_>

At 12/20/07 02:38 PM, pepeatumi wrote: It seems to me that buys went up by a fairly big margin after JBL lose the title... and yes, I have this much free time on my hands >_>

Really? Interesting...:)

At 12/20/07 05:14 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 12/20/07 02:38 PM, pepeatumi wrote: It seems to me that buys went up by a fairly big margin after JBL lose the title... and yes, I have this much free time on my hands >_>

Really? Interesting...:)

Cena was huge when he was the U.S champion. If you watched WM 21, you would see that the fans were all over him (literally) when he won the WWE title. Plus, a ten-month reign is too long for anyone, that was why the rating went up when JBL lost the title.

As long as Jericho come out on top of his fued with JBL then things will at least be decent.

Gregory Helms's mother passed away. Condolences to him and his family.

I wonder when Lashly will come back? Do you think WWE is keeping him off tv due to the steroids thing or is he still hurt?

I think MVP will be a world title contender in 2008. He has made such leaps and bounds with his character and in ring work that it just makes sense to have him fued for the top belt.

At 12/20/07 07:32 PM, Dream-of-Duke wrote: Cena was huge when he was the U.S champion. If you watched WM 21, you would see that the fans were all over him (literally) when he won the WWE title. Plus, a ten-month reign is too long for anyone, that was why the rating went up when JBL lost the title.

I think WWE is going through the growing pains of re-conditioning folks to accept longer title runs, which they really should do since they don't have the level of talent they used to to go bam bam bam, switch the title between two or three guys every couple of months or so.

Cena to me is an example of someone who got over, got over hard, and by overpushing, WWE turned a lot of folks off to him. But the guy is decent, tries hard as hell, he's no slug out there. I'm hoping they don't rush him back into getting the belt when he gets back though, let him chase it for a couple months, build to say Summerslam, and by that point you can flip it back on him and people will be happy.

Thats probably the best way to handle Cena when he gets back. His top priority will most l;ikely be getting revenge on Orton whether he is champion at the time or not.

At 12/21/07 11:42 AM, Outlaw88 wrote: Thats probably the best way to handle Cena when he gets back. His top priority will most l;ikely be getting revenge on Orton whether he is champion at the time or not.

Another reason to get Orton away from the title then perhaps? Otherwise Cena will be very possibly getting the title again right away. Just hope it doesn't turn into a repeat of what Orton and Micheals just went through.

And hi mind if I join?
And if Outlaw and Avie remember me? It's been a very long time since I really posted in newgrounds.

At 12/21/07 03:39 PM, Ghaleonx5z wrote: And hi mind if I join?

Actually you already joined once before, in checking
The List
you are # 132

And if Outlaw and Avie remember me? It's been a very long time since I really posted in newgrounds.

Glad to have you back! Who are you rooting for in the WWE these days?

At 12/21/07 03:56 PM, Outlaw88 wrote: Actually you already joined once before, in checking
The List
you are # 132

Wow, gone so long I forgot I joined already. How embaresing ^^;

Glad to have you back! Who are you rooting for in the WWE these days?

Thanks, glad to be back. These days? Wow thats not easy, I suppose I mostly still go for the season'd wrestlers. Having a hard time getting behind the new blood. Though as much as I hate to admit it I'm still a Cena fan.
Of course the fact that the rest of my family likes him might have pushed me into that. I mean ya have enough people in the room cheering for the guy all around ya, you just tend to turn that way too after a while.

I remember you Ghaleon, we still got your account over at thendlesscrew as well.

JBL says goodbye to SD! tonight...and hey, yay on that...because if Tazz comes back into the booth that show takes one more step towards perfection...now we just need JBL to go away..yes...

At 12/21/07 03:39 PM, Ghaleonx5z wrote: Another reason to get Orton away from the title then perhaps? Otherwise Cena will be very possibly getting the title again right away. Just hope it doesn't turn into a repeat of what Orton and Micheals just went through.

I think that HHH will win the title at WM because he is HHH. Then Cna will come back and destroy Orton before feuding to HHH at Summer Slam.

At 12/21/07 07:23 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: I remember you Ghaleon, we still got your account over at thendlesscrew as well.

JBL says goodbye to SD! tonight...and hey, yay on that...because if Tazz comes back into the booth that show takes one more step towards perfection...now we just need JBL to go away..yes...

I actually like heel anouncers. Aren't you tired of face anouncers crying about the faces getting screwed? Go heels!

I hope that Dave " I want my rrrrrrrrrremattttttchhhhhhh" Batista does not get another titl shot for at least 6 months after tonight.

At 12/21/07 09:04 PM, Dream-of-Duke wrote: I hope that Dave " I want my rrrrrrrrrremattttttchhhhhhh" Batista does not get another titl shot for at least 6 months after tonight.

I kind of figure the point here is to blow Big Dave off from the title picture. Or at least to set up what he and Edge will do for the Rumble.

heh Edgehead is a trem I haven't heard in a long time. Damn those major guys are dead ringers for the dude.

The Noble segment ran way too long... And wasn't funny.

I always thought that Cole and Tazz made a great announcing team so it's great to see them together again.

Not a bad show tonight, the Six man tag with Rey Kane and Punk was probably my favorite match of the night, but I have to admit that I laughed when I saw that translater guy copy Khali. Hard to keep a straight face when you see Finley do a jig as well. lol

I really enjoyed the show tonight.

One thing SD! does so much better then RAW is that they use the time to focus on multiple storylines instead of just one over-arching one for the whole show.

I thought the six-man was really good stuff, though I would have preferred to have seen Punk treated less like the bitch and the tackling dummy for the heels. If your going to build this guy up, then he needs to be able to stand up to his challenges better I think. They gave him some good hope spots, and they put over that he wouldn't say die, but letting the guy get beat down in almost every match isn't going to help his image really.

Hornswoggle and Finlay are definitely a fun little comedy duo here. Also, it keeps Khali far away from any long matches or anything. Nice comedy relief I thought.

I really liked the date segment, despite that it's something we've seen so much, Mccool is pretty wooden, but Noble is just comedy gold and can make any segment he's in so much better just for his being in it.

Wow, SD! really has built a nice little tag division now haven't they? The Jesse and Festus team are fun, and the Greasers are ok. Festus is a decent bruiser, and he's something different.

The JBL segment was over long self-indulgent twaddle. I need to hear JBL rant about how he's going to RAW to be champion? About how he obviously feels Jericho is beneath him? Uh huh, I'm really looking forward to the direction this is going...like I'd look forward to a colonoscopy.

Ric Flair is the man, pure and simple. Teh Edn.

I thought the main event was good, though I am a bit worried that they are taking the Edgeheads in the wrong direction if they aren't eventually used away from the boss man. Obviously this is like Team Angle, and since I really loved that angle, I'm already in love with this one. The right heel in a position where the authority figure is protecting the heel. I enjoyed the conchairto spot, especially cause it's a chairshot that's easy to work and still have look good. I like the idea that Edge will cheat and beat down somebody like Batista, and then that almost as an afterthought "Merry Christmas" had me rolling! Edge is the best heel alive right now I think.

At 12/21/07 09:35 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: I kind of figure the point here is to blow Big Dave off from the title picture. Or at least to set up what he and Edge will do for the Rumble.

The interesting point is that Taker did not show up tonight. I hope that it is the sign to show that we will indeed have Taker vs Edge at WM.

id love to join

and yes i remember scotty 2 hotty he teamed up with rikiy for a couple of years and yeh i love wrestling and i hav all my life.

CHEERS!

that fat cow vicki guerrero took the title from batista and he got his ass kicked. edge will have the title til forever and batista will hopefully goback to raw

At 12/21/07 07:00 PM, The-Redangleprince wrote: Ah hey, another old face. How've you been Ghaleon? Whats new?

Been well, can't say much is new though.

At 12/21/07 07:23 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: I remember you Ghaleon, we still got your account over at thendlesscrew as well.

Oh? Sweet I'll have to check that out somtime =D

At 12/21/07 07:38 PM, Dream-of-Duke wrote: I think that HHH will win the title at WM because he is HHH. Then Cna will come back and destroy Orton before feuding to HHH at Summer Slam.

Here is hoping it's somthing similar to that. Or even not getting the title for even longer, he doesn't need the title really. I think he might even get some of the crowd back on his side if he stays away from it longer.

At 12/22/07 06:37 AM, The-Redangleprince wrote: Wow, iMPACT! was down right awful...there wasn't even anything I could stand to watch. Nothing made sense, everything sucked.....ugh. And no, the ladder match wasn't very good either.

Did you not see the little girl crying when Angle beat down Santa? That=Greatness!

And I agree with your criticisms of the Briscoes, but when you look at their body of work, in terms of putting on the most entertaining matches, no other team even comes close to Jay and Mark... At least not this year.