At 11/5/07 06:59 PM, KaynSlamdyke wrote: No one has the attention span for plot on the portal. It's all about the bling.
You all know it's true. With the awesome graphics and fast ADHD capable gameplay, you get the fans. You get the fans, you get the 4+

I just noticed that Adam even admitted it: "Still I have lots of work to do on my story skills so future Brackenwood movies will have greater depth." So he's definitely aware of this, and it's great that he's trying to improve it. The bottom line is that it has so much potential, why have a movie with amazing graphics/animation and a story that clearly lacks when you can easily have BOTH elements be very strong?

At 11/5/07 07:06 PM, DFox wrote: The bottom line is that it has so much potential, why have a movie with amazing graphics/animation and a story that clearly lacks when you can easily have BOTH elements be very strong?

Because then the audience will get confused and go back to laughing at cock jokes and stick people shooting each other with automatic rifles?

At 11/5/07 07:12 PM, KaynSlamdyke wrote: anti-blog

Blog vs. Flash Sites

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. In all the examples I saw, I dont see an active voice which is what bothered me most about my site.
I dont want it to serve as a portfolio, so much so that i flat out dont even have my portfolio anymore.
Theres also practical reasons for not wanting a flash site. They are a pain to update, they dont refresh on some peoples cache and they are virtually uncrawlable by search spiders.

One thing I did notice when i went to BW 3.0 was the spike in search engine optimization.

I think my site still has a couple more versions to go before truly hitting its sweet spot but i think its in the direction i want it going in.

One of the best sites that has hit that sweet spot (in my opinion) is Bearskin Rug. He's managed to totally strip out the 'template-y ness' and yet you really feel like you get the artists active voice in his work. He keeps content coming in fresh, its generally not polished and refined and the typography is beautiful. And to boot he has a successful store that he managed to integrate.

Meh like i said maybe we just have different tastes.

At 11/5/07 06:16 PM, DFox wrote:

At 11/5/07 05:35 PM, Paranoia wrote: Meh, it always annoys me when people complain about stuff like storyline. Plot is something which acts as a framework for awesome direction or animation - nothing more. If someone can make something great without a ridiculously detailed plot then so much the better, and the last thing they need is a bunch of idiots who can identify basic story structure complaining about the lack of something which isn't necessary.

You have it mixed up. A good story line should allow you to make good animation for it. I'm sorry, the story is boring. I know I took a look at it, saw the amazing animation, but felt compelled to x it out half way through because it didn't seem like it was going anywhere. There's absolutely no reason that Adam shouldn't be able to combine a great story with his amazing animation, but right now the story is far from great. Even a flash movie like dad's home, or dad's at work, tells a story that is interesting. It just seems the Brackenwood series has no start point, no middle, and no end. It's like "blah".

The way I see it, youre both wrong. Not 'have it mixed up' but have it wrong. I think that there's no way to define a movie (or flash in this example) completely or the purpose of a movie completely. There isnt a way to generalize it.

You say that the Brackenwood story bores you Dfox. This says that youre like looking for something watching his toon and that it aint there so it is dull to you.

Remember man this is only from youre opinion too. To Adam the story may be quality. I think its quality myself. Maybe your not the target? Maybe Adam Phillips werent trying to appeal to everyone using your 'defined movie model' you seem to have sussed out.

Kayn, you are a legend. I swear everything except minor not often personal preferences i can agree with you on. You get it spot on in a more subtle way to Charlie Brooker.

Target Audiences

Yea i agree with the post above regarding the importance of target audiences. I think Adam's JohnnyUtahs and others have a select audience that the works appeal to. Its part of the reason clock movies/star syndicate and other popular franchises have survived the years. Some people ARENT out for an engrossing story. I was never really able to get 'into' James Farr's Xombie, i had watched a slew of episodes and when i saw the last one, i didnt feel sad or anything for any of the characters.
On the same note, I never really got into any of adams brackenwood characters, it *could* be his weak storyline or it could be that i dont like fantasy things, i find it hard to get into Paladin, broken saints, etc. Maybe i'm just not their target audience.

At 11/5/07 08:37 PM, Mogly wrote: Remember man this is only from youre opinion too. To Adam the story may be quality. I think its quality myself. Maybe your not the target? Maybe Adam Phillips werent trying to appeal to everyone using your 'defined movie model' you seem to have sussed out.

Wait, then answer this, what is his target audience? People who like movies with weak stories... You can't honestly be serious. Adam even ADMITTED that the story is weak and he's trying to improve it. The animation and drawing are amazing, and if he could just put it in some story form with just a little bit of some story element, it would take it to a different level. It's not action packed, it's not suspenseful, it's not meant to be a comedy, so the way I see it, it is not targeting ANY audience. I have no problem with dull stories. I love movies like that. The problem with this is there is no clear story or plot or any story ELEMENT... You just kind of watch it and go those graphics are amazing, but never say anything about the actual movie as a whole.

But please, don't try to make this about "target audience". "People who like weak stories" is not a legitimate target audience because the truth is those people rarely exist. Luis said he doesn't like Xombie. OK, but that's reasonable because he must not be part of the clear-cut target audience, people who like action-drama's... That's a target audience, and that's what this series seems like it's lacking. I think I saw Adam talking about a full length motion picture or something which would be awesome, but it's not going to happen unless he can go to a studio and show them some kind of story with a valid target audience. It seems like it would target younger kids, but kids can't sit through a movie unless it has some kind of story.

At 11/5/07 09:18 PM, hashbrown wrote: sketchbook 08

i might participate in sketchbook 08, it would be cool if the only thing you could draw were dicks cause it would feel much more newgroundy. I get a lot of WTF are you drawing im my classes when i draw dicks, but they are fun to draw so sometimes i just do

That would be...odd, to say the least, and constricting from an artistic point of view. Perhaps drawing dicks in class is not the best idea...but if you want to be that guy, that's ok....actually I don't ever remember there being a guy like that...but yea...

Target Audiences

Truth to that, different strokes for different folks. Some times I do not grasp the attraction of flash movies, and games, such as the missile momentum mayhem or whatever it is in the top 50. To me, that game sucks, and is boring as hell, and actually aggravating, but obviously a lot of other people thought it was pretty sweet, so whatever.

Re:(continued from last page) Brackenwood and whatever else

At 11/5/07 09:21 PM, DFox wrote:

At 11/5/07 08:37 PM, Mogly wrote: Remember man this is only from youre opinion too. To Adam the story may be quality. I think its quality myself. Maybe your not the target? Maybe Adam Phillips werent trying to appeal to everyone using your 'defined movie model' you seem to have sussed out.

Wait, then answer this, what is his target audience? People who like movies with weak stories... You can't honestly be serious. Adam even ADMITTED that the story is weak and he's trying to improve it. The animation and drawing are amazing, and if he could just put it in some story form with just a little bit of some story element, it would take it to a different level. It's not action packed, it's not suspenseful, it's not meant to be a comedy, so the way I see it, it is not targeting ANY audience. I have no problem with dull stories. I love movies like that. The problem with this is there is no clear story or plot or any story ELEMENT... You just kind of watch it and go those graphics are amazing, but never say anything about the actual movie as a whole.

But please, don't try to make this about "target audience". "People who like weak stories" is not a legitimate target audience because the truth is those people rarely exist. Luis said he doesn't like Xombie. OK, but that's reasonable because he must not be part of the clear-cut target audience, people who like action-drama's... That's a target audience, and that's what this series seems like it's lacking. I think I saw Adam talking about a full length motion picture or something which would be awesome, but it's not going to happen unless he can go to a studio and show them some kind of story with a valid target audience. It seems like it would target younger kids, but kids can't sit through a movie unless it has some kind of story.

Man, who says there's a target audience? Maybe Adam Phillips just thought, 'you know what, I love this little idea of mine so im gunna make it'. Dont think in formulas and shit all the time.
Whats this quote of Adam's that you based half your post on (got a link)? Maybe it was just a flaking comment not to be taken to seriously anywho.

One reason im starting to really not like the idea of doing something to do with film when i finish college (studying 'media moving image') is because I really hate all the formulas and cliches. I like to think back to more naive and unknowing ideas rather than having it all worked out already. It's 'too big a thing to grasp' sort of thing.

NOTE - BTW, im really not the best with my words, im not to good at articulating what im trying to say. And also sorry if this appears as if im arguing with you. If you wanna reply, think of me more just discussing it. :)

Night night.

At 11/5/07 09:33 PM, Mogly wrote: Man, who says there's a target audience?

Um, you? "Maybe your not the target?"

Maybe Adam Phillips just thought, 'you know what, I love this little idea of mine so im gunna make it'. Dont think in formulas and shit all the time.

Having a story in your Flash movies now-a-days is following a formula? Jesus, I'm not saying follow the movie-writing template, I'm saying have some kind of story that's better developed and people can actually get into.

Whats this quote of Adam's that you based half your post on (got a link)? Maybe it was just a flaking comment not to be taken to seriously anywho.

It's in the description of waterlollies right here on Newgrounds...

One reason im starting to really not like the idea of doing something to do with film when i finish college (studying 'media moving image') is because I really hate all the formulas and cliches. I like to think back to more naive and unknowing ideas rather than having it all worked out already. It's 'too big a thing to grasp' sort of thing.

There's formulas and then there's basic concepts. The basic concept of a movie is it has some sort of plot and storyline.

At 11/5/07 10:13 PM, hashbrown wrote: FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!! :o

lol! I smell flames.......

wait that doesn't sound right.

At 11/5/07 10:13 PM, hashbrown wrote: FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!! :o

RE: arguing over Adam

I think its a healthy argument as long as people continue to agree to disagree in an intelligent manner.. so far so good with that.. everyone seems to have fairly valid arguments and its normal and healthy that we all dont always agree. I like that people are willing to give a few inches and leave it open that you can atleast vaguely understand how the other person may see it from their pt. view.

Ya thats all, i just wanted to chime in because people always feel like im anti having people go back and forth. Besides atleast its not the usual 3d vs 2d thing zzzzzz...

Just randomly, When did this happen? I would ask in General... But you know how they are when you're slow to notice things like this.

Everyone sucks

At 11/5/07 09:21 PM, DFox wrote: Wait, then answer this, what is his target audience?

Newgrounds.

Come on. We're a less diverse lot than Something Awful. The average member of this community is a fourteen year old male computer game player. Its got even less barriers to mental entry than pro-wrestling

You just kind of watch it and go those graphics are amazing, but never say anything about the actual movie as a whole.

Yeah. Shame that kind of stuff flies in the real world too...

I think I saw Adam talking about a full length motion picture or something which would be awesome, but it's not going to happen unless he can go to a studio and show them some kind of story with a valid target audience.

No, what's NOT going to happen is Adam going to a studio for backing WITHOUT a legion of fanboys already dying to see a full length toon being made.

It's as I said a page ago. If you GET that legion of fanboys you can AFFORD to take risks maintaining a 4.0 Batting Average and your name in highlights. After all, why submit something with THAT level of work if it'd just slip into the Portal unnoticed, its name never placed on the front page because people didn't get it and voted zero, or Tom didn't recognise it as a big-deal name and put the toon on Front Page?

You get the LUXURY of throwing plot at people and making them think. Was Hitchhiker Adam's breakthrough hit? No. Bitey was. Prowlies cemented it, Littlefoot, Yuyu and Waterlollies carpetted over it. Now he's got a fantastic foundation to DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE with. And it's not just Adam who can do it now. Sqeezy and rtil and our very own Luis now have that creative freedom and can still guaruntee that thier work gets out there for all to see.

Okay, (comes the obvious counter argument), why doesn't someone come up with a well animated toon with a perfect plot and build thier fanbase afterwards? Well unfortunately, the amount of effort required for that is ludicrous, especially without people egging you on. And woebetitide you submit on a day that Krinkles or The Swain submit one of thier toons.

God wouldn't THAT suck. Someone with Adam's ability and the storytelling ability DFox demands losing to a toon release that'd only be theoretically superior by weight of numbers.

And once you have that legion of fanboys, once you have your name over the entire net, once people are actually caring about your animations to THAT extent, then MAYBE, MAYBE you can take it to the real world. Because hopefully your name will mean something more then to CEO of Time Warner than it does to the guy slacking off in thier server room.

It seems like it would target younger kids,

Considering he's ex-Disney and Western animation in the mainstream has ALWAYS targetted kids, best to stick with what you're good at...

but kids can't sit through a movie unless it has some kind of story.

[Insert rant here, for the hundreth time, disagreeing with DFox's opinion]

At 11/5/07 09:33 PM, Mogly wrote: Re:(continued from last page) Brackenwood and whatever else

At 11/5/07 09:21 PM, DFox wrote:

At 11/5/07 08:37 PM, Mogly wrote:

Man, who says there's a target audience? Maybe Adam Phillips just thought, 'you know what, I love this little idea of mine so im gunna make it'. Dont think in formulas and shit all the time.

See what having fans gives you? The ability to act on those thoughts AND make it big. :)

Thanks for saying I rant well btw.

Blockslide 2- It's finally done!

http://www.glaielgames.com/playgame.php?
id=48

I'll be releasing on newgrounds tomorrow. I want to make sure that there aren't any disastrous bugs first. That and I don't want to compete with waterlollies and retarded animal babies for the weekly prizes.

RE: Glaielzz

Didnt find any bugs that i could tell but design wise there were some little kwirks that i think could be handled better. i like that the hotkeys are also buttons on the buttom but maybe you could have it so that the actual hotkey is in parenthesis as a quick reminder or somethin.
By the way i hate it when you use that font for everything.. its just too thick and compressed to be used as an all purpose font. It looks good on headers and subtitles, not so much as body text. Just an fyi.

RE: Adam and other influences

I do tend to agree that Adam's background with Disney and his training there obviously influenced his work greatly, even his collegues work (I forgot his name but he does Arj and Poopy) is Disneyish in presentation. I think that Adam is human and part of being human is just being deeply influenced by what you are heavily exposed to.

I obviously cant speak for Adam but i actually find it quite difficult to break my regular 'style' even when i want to. Its just tough, its almost unconcious.

I actually do like Adams clean style and presentation. It has similarities to my own, I'm a clean freak and i like that in my own work. However I find toons that are rough and very hand drawn quite beautiful. Stuff like Rtil's Gum or maybe Lazy Muffin's work where its deliberately more organic and expressive.

I think i went off on a tangent but ya. sorry

RE: Storyline and substance

In regards to storyline, I actually watch cartoons in the portal knowing im not going to be getting some Academy Award story or epic movie. I go in there with that expectation, i dont have my tub of popcorn I dont go in there expecting to be totally engrossed in front of my computer for 5 mins. So in that respect, weak storylines never really bugged me.
I mean youre watching a 3-4 minute presentation. Naturally theres some really talented people out there who in those 3 mins can really grasp your soul but realistically i dont particularly approach any FLASH movie with that expectation.. now if i was going into a theatre or popping in a 1.5 hr dvd then ok maybe i have a more discriminating taste.

Its sort of the same for games. I dont play games here with the expectation of getting the next Halo 3 .. i sort of LIKE that this is raw talent I'm being exposed to and like very homemade and theres something passionate about it.

Isnt that exciting about Newgrounds though? The fact that its sort of stayed (relatively) safe from like major players(corporate companies) in the scene who could have clearly benefitted from the sheer traffic that the portal could bring them. Its sort of nice that even with the boom in the Flash industry NG is still about young fresh talent.

At 11/6/07 09:08 AM, Luis wrote: Its sort of nice that even with the boom in the Flash industry NG is still about young fresh talent.

Agreed. IMO NG's bad reputation as a porn portal has ironically kept it untainted from the corrupting touch of mainstream corporate influence. I wonder if, as Tom tries to counteract the porn reputation NG was kinda forced to go through to survive, the site will become as mundane as the imitators. I kinda doubt it given the sheer size of the community though.

At 11/5/07 08:37 PM, Mogly wrote: The way I see it, youre both wrong. Not 'have it mixed up' but have it wrong. I think that there's no way to define a movie (or flash in this example) completely or the purpose of a movie completely. There isnt a way to generalize it.

Yeah, you're right. It is kind of pointless trying to rationalise quality in something which is essentially art as opposed to science. It's not like you're measuring something quantifiable. Sometimes emphasis on a particular aspect works well; sometimes it just complicates things and gets in the way. Sometimes something appeals to one group of people; sometimes it appeals to another.

I do think that DFox has a slightly cynical view on animation. Generally creativity is about appealing to the creator rather than trying to squeeze your ideas to fit a specific target audience. Also, you can't really be condescending towards people who like quality for the sake of quality in animation even when it doesn't support a hugely intricate plot. I mean, all of you must at some point have looked at a stretch of country, or lake, or sky, and just thought that it was beautiful. Where's the plot there?

Whatever, I'm waffling. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Also, someone steal my sig already. I feel like I'm the last to jump off of a broken down bandwagon here >.<

nah, i like my sig ^^ matches very well to my fab status don't you think?

At 11/6/07 07:55 AM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: I'll be releasing on newgrounds tomorrow. I want to make sure that there aren't any disastrous bugs first. That and I don't want to compete with waterlollies and retarded animal babies for the weekly prizes.

Smart move ;). Anyway, awesome game, nice and simple to get the hang of, yet challenging enough to keep you interested. Nice job, and no bugs that i could see.

At 11/6/07 07:55 AM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote:

That and I don't want to compete with waterlollies and retarded animal babies for the weekly prizes.

BOOOOOO it's never about the awards, it's about the exposure and letting people play your stuff. I'm sure you'll get a front page whenever you submit it.

At 11/6/07 11:50 AM, jmtb02 wrote:

At 11/6/07 07:55 AM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote:

That and I don't want to compete with waterlollies and retarded animal babies for the weekly prizes.

BOOOOOO it's never about the awards, it's about the exposure and letting people play your stuff. I'm sure you'll get a front page whenever you submit it.

That's not the only reason I'm waiting till tomorrow to submit btw.

And I'm sure I'll get frontpage too... it's being sponsored by Tom after all...

But this week's been crazy for high scoring stuff like indestructo tank 2 and waterlollies and age of war and whatever, I don't want it overshadowed.

I don't care if I'm an award-whore or not, it's fun to win things.

Waterlollies

I don't want to be part of this really but I'd like to share some information that all those arguing might like to consider.

One, on the Brackenwood forums (I'm not going to find it again, dig around yourself) Adam has said that the Waterlollies story was one of the first he wrote. What lacks in story line could be completely attributed to the fact that he didn't have all of this fame and this "target audience" none sense. He wanted to keep the story how it is because that is how he wrote way back whenever. He's not going to add lasers and anime just to appeal to the masses (I know that is now what you are suggesting, just an example).

Two, I disagree that his audience is Newgrounds. I agree that most of his internet fame has come from NG but Phillip's fame far exceeds the internet. He is a beta tester for Flash meaning Adobe recognizes him as been ahead of the times in computer animation. He has also submitted works to huge animation competitions. While NG harbors many talented artists, it doesn't quite have the rep of a site when world renowned animators make their starts. Again, there are exceptions to that like everything but for the most part it is true. One reason I think Adam stands out from the NG crowd is specifically becuase he DIDN'T start here. He worked his way through Disney and he HAPPENED to come across this site and submit his stuff. This wasn't the beginning for him. Although, it was the beginning for his internet fame, I'll agree there.

I don't know what I am saying kbai

At 11/6/07 11:56 AM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: it's being sponsored by Tom after all...

Thanks for that reminder.. i had forgetten in all of the 20 times you've already mentioned it!

what a name dropper.

</ego-pop>

At 11/5/07 05:35 PM, Paranoia wrote: Meh, it always annoys me when people complain about stuff like storyline. Plot is something which acts as a framework for awesome direction or animation - nothing more.

In my opinion animation and images is a framework for story or concept. It's just a difference in view, but there is no need to call people who see things in another way than you idiots.

boring3d.com

I found an absolutely great website made of random 3D images. Very random.

Here is a link to all of the pictures (some of them are part of a story, so if you start at the bottom and work up its in order (they were part of a daily picture thing)). Unfortunately, the creator has gone a bit out of touch of making them.

At 11/6/07 09:08 AM, Luis wrote: RE: Storyline and substance

In regards to storyline, I actually watch cartoons in the portal knowing im not going to be getting some Academy Award story or epic movie. I go in there with that expectation, i dont have my tub of popcorn I dont go in there expecting to be totally engrossed in front of my computer for 5 mins. So in that respect, weak storylines never really bugged me.
I mean youre watching a 3-4 minute presentation. Naturally theres some really talented people out there who in those 3 mins can really grasp your soul but realistically i dont particularly approach any FLASH movie with that expectation.. now if i was going into a theatre or popping in a 1.5 hr dvd then ok maybe i have a more discriminating taste.

Its sort of the same for games. I dont play games here with the expectation of getting the next Halo 3 .. i sort of LIKE that this is raw talent I'm being exposed to and like very homemade and theres something passionate about it.

Isnt that exciting about Newgrounds though? The fact that its sort of stayed (relatively) safe from like major players(corporate companies) in the scene who could have clearly benefitted from the sheer traffic that the portal could bring them. Its sort of nice that even with the boom in the Flash industry NG is still about young fresh talent.

It is true that it is almost impossible to make an epic story in flash. And really, we shouldn't expect anything like that from this medium. But who said that a story needs to be epic? Very simple and short stories can be just as effective in provoking emotion as an epic one.
And even above the story, there is the concept. What is the movie trying to say, how is it trying to achieve that, what is the vision of the artist? A good concept can very well be achieved in a flash movie. It are the movies with profound concepts that win the serious festival prizes and recieve critical acclaim. They stick with you for a long period of time and make you think about their topics and themes.
I have nothing but respect for Adam's drawing talent and professional attitude towards the flash medium, but I'm not a fan of his work, because the theme and concept of the brackenwood series has never really got to me. In the end, they are all short cartoons about a little creature hopping, running and eating stuff, animated in a beautiful manner. If i had to choose, i would much rather choose an Alanthebox flash or one from Kol Belov above a Brackenwood one any day.
It's a difference in perception. Some come here for quick entertainment or awesome animation and they watch a Brackenwood short like they would see fantastic 4 in a cinema. Others come here to see original work from independent artists and to see profound shorts. People come here with a variety of motives and that's what makes the site great, cause there is stuff for everyone on here.

It's the same with flash gaming. Someone could make a game with the most beautiful visuals, but does that make it a good game? Often wise, an original concept makes something alot more interesting than awesome visuals.

At 11/6/07 01:28 PM, trig1 wrote: boring3d.com

I found an absolutely great website made of random 3D images. Very random.

Here is a link to all of the pictures (some of them are part of a story, so if you start at the bottom and work up its in order (they were part of a daily picture thing)). Unfortunately, the creator has gone a bit out of touch of making them.

I've seen that guys site before! I love that stuff. Actually, this site had really inspired me to do 3D. I played around a bunch with a couple of programs but I never really caught on. My interest might have been brought back up seeing his stuff again though.

I don't understand how he has such clear and defined lighting and textures. It all looks so good!

At 11/6/07 01:50 PM, Senti wrote: I don't understand how he has such clear and defined lighting and textures. It all looks so good!

On the download section, he says that he uses some stuff (I've never done 3D so I'm not sure if it matters). On the galleries page, he also says "For those who don't know, Vray is a Rendering Plugin for 3DS Max. You can find out more about it here". Maybe thats his secret.