At 10/14/09 11:40 AM, citricsquid wrote: give it a few hours, he only just posted it. They normally end up with around 250 questions, sometimes up to 1,500 if it's a popular one :D

Fair enough. The effort required to register for yet another web community is stopping me from asking whether Flash games have a potential as a primary, legitimate and sustainable source of income.

If i were to actually make a costume for Halloween, I could probably scare Chuck Norris.

Thus, i go as myself every year:

At 10/14/09 12:02 PM, citricsquid wrote: for you, my sweet

Aww Sam, thanks.

To be fair, I know the answer to that one already. I can't picture anyone managing to sell a game a month for anything resembling sustainable income without having a contract established beforehand. The net of potential sponsors doesn't appear wide enough to allow for a large group of people with half the skills needed to make a casual game to claim £1000+ a month each. Future navel gazing aside, at some point sponsors need to make a return on thier investments, and a company like Armor really needs to be pulling in more than it's spending by now.

Even though web advertisement's a massive industry (now officially larger than TeeVee), I doubt most of it's rooted in flash games. AdSense sure, video ads and youtube sponsored links sure, but not Flash games.

I could be wrong. Maybe we need someone from the other side of the sponsorship fence to make an IAmA thread.

Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1113 409

Anyone want to provide the link in regards to the last post?

I forget what page it was on.

At 10/14/09 12:57 PM, Rustygames wrote: Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

What do you mean?

At 10/14/09 01:13 PM, ArthurGhostIy wrote: Anyone want to provide the link in regards to the last post?

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/5784 34/1719#bbspost20048120_heading

At 10/14/09 12:57 PM, Rustygames wrote: Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

Many of us older users have IRL jobs in the industry, but making our own stuff still has a lot of appeal. The others, I assume, have school sucking up their "IRL" time.

At 10/14/09 02:11 PM, BoMToons wrote:

At 10/14/09 12:57 PM, Rustygames wrote: Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

Many of us older users have IRL jobs in the industry, but making our own stuff still has a lot of appeal. The others, I assume, have school sucking up their "IRL" time.

I happen to know a few of the users on here don't have day jobs (or school) and dream of making flash for a living. Trouble is most people on this forum don't seem to understand there is a real world out there and not everyone living off flash is working from home making indie games for the internet, in fact, very few are.

Developing

I think the only really realistic way of doing it is to focus on many different areas with one set of art/code. IE make a flash game, an ipod version and if it's a large project, a pc payable version (ala closure). This means you're covering 3 sectors of the market with similar code and the same artwork, maximizing profits and (if its good) making a lot of cash over a long time period.

With CS5 this should be easier, i can't wait to see what i can do (hopefully without a mac).

At 10/14/09 02:56 PM, Depredation wrote: Developing

I think the only really realistic way of doing it is to focus on many different areas with one set of art/code. IE make a flash game, an ipod version and if it's a large project, a pc payable version (ala closure). This means you're covering 3 sectors of the market with similar code and the same artwork, maximizing profits and (if its good) making a lot of cash over a long time period.

With CS5 this should be easier, i can't wait to see what i can do (hopefully without a mac).

Don't forget XNA, that will allow you to deploy to Xbox, Zune and PC
Flash will publish to the IPhone soon too

At 10/14/09 02:11 PM, BoMToons wrote:

At 10/14/09 12:57 PM, Rustygames wrote: Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

Many of us older users have IRL jobs in the industry, but making our own stuff still has a lot of appeal. The others, I assume, have school sucking up their "IRL" time.

It's hard once you get in the industry to continue doing things on the side, it takes a lot of dedication and focus. I know that once I started 8 hours a day the time spent on side projects definitely flew out the window.

Over-rated.

At 10/14/09 02:11 PM, BoMToons wrote:

At 10/14/09 12:57 PM, Rustygames wrote: Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

Many of us older users have IRL jobs in the industry, but making our own stuff still has a lot of appeal. The others, I assume, have school sucking up their "IRL" time.

Nah. Time problems are a myth. If we didn't have time we wouldn't all have literally thousands of posts on newgrounds, and we wouldn't spend the other 90% of our internet time watching porn. The only reasons we don't do things is because we're lazy or incompetent. I'm kinda speaking for myself here but I say it because I'm pretty certain it roughly applies for all the other users who are in school. On a typical day I spend 7-10 hours at school from 8 to 6, and then I spend 8 hours not doing schoolwork. Put a chip in my brain to force me to do flash, and I'll be popping out minigames every day like hot cakes.

At 10/14/09 04:21 PM, Toast wrote: I'm kinda speaking for myself here but I say it because I'm pretty certain it roughly applies for all the other users who are in school.

Don't worry. It applies to those of us with jobs too. Only difference is people like me, who move like glaciers when it comes to doing projects, tend to cut thier losses and give the whole thing up, rather than stay here out of a sense of community spirit and a need to stay somehow connected to the cutting edge

At 10/14/09 02:29 PM, Rustygames wrote:

At 10/14/09 02:11 PM, BoMToons wrote:

At 10/14/09 12:57 PM, Rustygames wrote: Why is everyone afraid of going and making money off flash IRL rather then over teh intrawebs

Many of us older users have IRL jobs in the industry, but making our own stuff still has a lot of appeal. The others, I assume, have school sucking up their "IRL" time.

I happen to know a few of the users on here don't have day jobs (or school) and dream of making flash for a living. Trouble is most people on this forum don't seem to understand there is a real world out there and not everyone living off flash is working from home making indie games for the internet, in fact, very few are.

Exactly. Indie games are lots of fun to make, and I want to devote as much time as possible to them, but at roughly £1000 per game, they really don't compare to the £400-500 a day I can charge for contractor flash work right now. I imagine I could just about live on sponsorships alone, but it'd be near full time. I'd rather do a few days of contract work a week, then spend the rest of my time making games for fun and a little money on the side. And it's not that hard to get into, at least not in and around London.

Tom-

At 10/14/09 04:31 PM, The-Super-Flash-Bros wrote: Exactly. Indie games are lots of fun to make, and I want to devote as much time as possible to them, but at roughly £1000 per game, they really don't compare to the £400-500 a day I can charge for contractor flash work right now. I imagine I could just about live on sponsorships alone, but it'd be near full time. I'd rather do a few days of contract work a week, then spend the rest of my time making games for fun and a little money on the side. And it's not that hard to get into, at least not in and around London.

Tom-

or "take the big jump" and try to sell a full game on steam or wiiware or xbla or psn or direct2drive or whatever. It's a lot more work but a lot more gain in the end.

Also, Unity can deploy to the web, pc, iphone, and wii. You should check it out if you haven't yet.
http://unity3d.com/

It's expensive, I want to learn how to use it eventually because (frankly) it's stupid to roll you're own fully functional 3D game engine when the ones that are out there are do everything you could do better and more.

Also, every finalist team in the IGF gets a free license for Unity Pro. Every winning team gets a license for each team member. Cough up $100 and submit your damn game!

There's plenty of ways to make money making games, flash is not the only thing capable of making money.

At 10/14/09 05:18 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: or "take the big jump" and try to sell a full game on steam or wiiware or xbla or psn or direct2drive or whatever. It's a lot more work but a lot more gain in the end.

That's a very tempting option, especially seeing how well you guys have been doing with the 'real' games scene (not that flash games aren't real). It would mean taking a few weeks out to get to grips with C++ again though. Once I've saved up a bit of money, I plan to dive in and give it my best shot!

Tom-

On the topic of console game development, I've decided to get an XNA subscription for the upcoming Rock Band Network and I've been dabbling with C# with the hopes of writing a few 360 games. But that kind of brought to a point where I realized that it's probably a lot harder to BS the graphics for normal games than it is for Flash games; do any of you guys have any tips for an aspiring game programmer who is severely lacking in the artistic department?

At 10/14/09 05:44 PM, matrix5565 wrote: do any of you guys have any tips for an aspiring game programmer who is severely lacking in the artistic department?

Work with an artist :)

I think making a living from indie Flash games is entirely possible, I know a fair few people doing it. I think one of the most important things you need is the drive to want to make it work. If you're lazy and unmotivated then you arent going to get anywhere, but if you can get into a state of mind where you really WANT to do it then theres a good chance you'll be able to do it with some hard work.

Personally, I cant think of anything in the world i'd rather do, when I wake up all I want to do it make games and when I go to bed all I can think about is making games. Im not working full time on it yet, ive just started my final year at uni, but I'm hoping to do it freelance full time after my degree. Maybe ive just been lucky in working with LongAnimals, but if your passionate and motivated about it and have a decent level of skill I dont think there is any reason why you cant make it work!

Saying that you're not gonna get anywhere if sponsors don't pay up, bored.com are doing my fucking nut in! GIVE ME MY MONEY >:(

At 10/14/09 05:18 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: There's plenty of ways to make money making games, flash is not the only thing capable of making money.

I've always wanted to make board games for a living.

Hey guys i wanna try using sprites im n ot sure where or how to get them thought and how to use them! if you chould help me i whould much apretaite it!

P.S i have Flash Mx

At 10/14/09 07:22 PM, jmtb02 wrote:

At 10/14/09 05:18 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: There's plenty of ways to make money making games, flash is not the only thing capable of making money.

I've always wanted to make board games for a living.

That would be amazing! I hear board games are having something of a revival out in the states. And of course, in Germany they've never stopped being popular for some reason.

What's everyone's dream job? Mine is still to make games full time, flash or otherwise. I'm crossing my fingers right now over a chance to do that, at least for a few years. US imigration makes me sad :'(

Tom-

At 10/14/09 04:07 PM, Deadclever23 wrote: Over-rated.

I actually kinda agree with the writer in stating that there's no purpose in making any CS apps for the iPhone as it would be tedious and impractical in so many ways...

At 10/14/09 06:49 PM, Jimp wrote:

At 10/14/09 05:44 PM, matrix5565 wrote: do any of you guys have any tips for an aspiring game programmer who is severely lacking in the artistic department?

Work with an artist :)

Or use abstract graphics like squares and junk. If a game is fun with abstract graphics, you'll have no problem finding an artist to make it look better. Or maybe it just works better that way.

I think making a living from indie Flash games is entirely possible, I know a fair few people doing it. I think one of the most important things you need is the drive to want to make it work.

I don't mean to be a downer but technically most of the "successful" independent flash devs (not counting webmasters or people with a salary like jmtb02) spend more time marketing and milking one game than they do actually making a variety of games.

At 10/14/09 07:22 PM, jmtb02 wrote:

At 10/14/09 05:18 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: There's plenty of ways to make money making games, flash is not the only thing capable of making money.

I've always wanted to make board games for a living.

a board game called "Train" won an award at indiecade. It was about the holocaust.

I've just been put in charge of Boy Scouts in my church. All the boys seem really un-motivated by their current leaders. Any advice on how to motivate 12-17 yr old boys to accomplish goals?

At 10/14/09 11:33 PM, BoMToons wrote: I've just been put in charge of Boy Scouts in my church. All the boys seem really un-motivated by their current leaders. Any advice on how to motivate 12-17 yr old boys to accomplish goals?

Well, don't show them Newgrounds. They'll be stuck watching Hentai all day and never get anything done.

apparently i'm also now helping the teacher teach the class animation now that we're actually on the computer aspect of the class.

who woulda thunk it.

also while im teaching the teacher tends to interrupt with the point im about to make to make himself look useful. its starting to piss me off.

At 10/14/09 11:33 PM, BoMToons wrote: I've just been put in charge of Boy Scouts in my church. All the boys seem really un-motivated by their current leaders. Any advice on how to motivate 12-17 yr old boys to accomplish goals?

Are they like lazy-unmotivated or ADHD-unmotivated.
I was put in charge of teaching about 7 ADHD 11-year olds how to put up a tent one time... it's not easy.

My dad was the leader of my group. What we did to motivate people was after the groups accomplished their goals they got to play a game for the rest of the meeting. The one the kids all liked (the adults weren't too fond of), was "elimination". You have a tennis ball, a court, and a bunch of kids. Throw the ball up into the group. If you have the ball, nobody can move. You can then bean it at someone. if it hits them, they're out. If they catch it, the person who threw it is out. Because people can only move when nobody is holding the ball, and the court is free for all, you always end up with this wave pattern where someone will throw it, everyone will actually run away from it then when they realize nobody is going towards it they all turn around and run to try and get it. It's fun and you can get hurt (some people can bean the tennis ball pretty hard) so it builds character.

We also like, for campouts and stuff, had each group plan their own meals ahead of time. If they did a crappy job planning their meals, they ate crappy food on the campout and had to watch the group that planned right or the adult group eat great food while they're all stuck with poptarts. After that happens a few times they'll all get the gist and start taking that seriously.

At 10/14/09 07:46 PM, sir5000 wrote:

At 10/14/09 04:07 PM, Deadclever23 wrote: Over-rated.

I actually kinda agree with the writer in stating that there's no purpose in making any CS apps for the iPhone as it would be tedious and impractical in so many ways...

While I agree in principle with the fact that Adobe would need to break the performance thing wide open before we're all developing Castle Crashers clones in Flash for the iPhone, there's one part of the article that disapoints...

OK, so you are a Windows person and don't have a Mac. So what? Get a Mac. If that's your sole reason you are holding yourself back from doing iPhone development... I'm sorry, but you are delusional.

Actually it's because I'm living on a shoestring as it is, and don't want to be purchasing a grand and a half* worth of hardware solely to POSSIBLY develop applications that MIGHT have a return on investment for another quarter of a grand** worth of hardware I don't own yet.

Because I would have no use for a Mac, or indeed an iPhone/iPod Touch otherwise. I have an MP3 player which holds two gigs of music (seriously, you can listen to more than that before the batteries run out and you need to plug it into the computer anyway?), and I have my current tools which are sufficient for all my artistic and development needs. I do not need another bit of hardware until the stuff I have falls apart. Which means no Windows 7, no getting my offline XP PC upgraded, no buying a PS3 because it's newer than my 360, no buying an acoustic drum kit until I've exhausted every option on my electronic one (hella unlikely), no GH5 until the Rock Band store closes, and certainly no buying a shiny new chunk of silicon that none of my current software will run on without emulation.

If I'm going to develop for iPhone, by all means I'll learn ObjC. I'm planning learning some C# soon as well so I can develop for nonoba server anyway, so two similar languages won't be a massive undertaking. But I'm not going to bother with the practical execution until I can compile it from XP.

Obviously I'm not the target audience here - part timers aren't welcome to this party - and so the chances of Apple opening the floodgates to Windows and *nux users isn't going to happen soon. Apple values it's exclusivity and all.

iPhone developers need to be the kind of people who are ready to throw a massive amount of money into the pot to risk them getting an ROI and spend a really quick time developing a real gimmicky app that hopefully takes flight, or already have to be platform advocates from the web or design industries***, and I have a strong feeling there's more emphasis on the latter group of old pros than there are of the former. There was a hope that with Flash being able to compile to .ipa gives another avenue to an indie developer or a freelancer without putting an extra straw on thier already quite brittle backs, as well as giving hobbyists free reign.

* iMac 24inch Core 2 Duo - £1,199.00
** New Apple iPod touch 32GB - £222.00
Source, Amazon.co.uk

*** Who owns a Mac and *isn't* working in the print, audio or web design sectors? Or isn't a pretentious college/university student (in which case, they should save themselves a few hundred pounds and buy a beret)