At 1/10/03 01:24 AM, Jethro_The_Mexicano wrote: Wade, seriously whats the difference between the 0 and 5 and they way u guys want it? Look if u vote 0 or 1 i think its gonna lower the score of the entry and u get a blam point. If u vote 2,3,4,5 i think (except maybe 2) its gonna raise the score and u get a protection point.
Thats why I like the + and - idea.
What you said is wrong. If you vote 0 or 1 you only get a blam point if the entry is blammed. If it's protected you don't get any points. So why someone would vote 0 or 1 on a good entry that they should know will end up being protected is beyond me, but people do it, and those who over do it will be punished.
Some of you are taking this the wrong way. If you watch 50 movies in a row and they are truely crap, and you vote 0 on every single one, and so does just about everyone else you have nothing to fear.
The only people who have something to fear are those who vote 0 on 50 movies, when 10 of them were good and they should have known they were good, but they probably never watched them in the first place to find out! Don't you people get it?!?!? THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WE ARE GOING AFTER!!!!!!!!!!
At 1/10/03 01:50 AM, Jethro_The_Mexicano wrote: Yeah you prove a good point. Heres another idea. There is like 100,000 people on NG's and 80% are retarded. And of those retards they are low level. Heres a good one. Maybe you should emphasize more on what level they are and when they signed up. I know that would totally kill me but so what! Ill sacrafice my profile for the good of NG's.
You're a bit off with your figures. Just to go over this again.
NG gets around 150,000 unique visitors a day, maybe more since the server upgrade (we haven't kept logs recently, but we can figure we are getting as much traffic or more from the time we did keep logs).
Most of that 150,000 comes to NG, watches a movie, and leaves. They may not even vote.
I would probably guess out of the 150,000 people, only a couple thousand vote. Out of that, only a hundred or two are probably actively watching new content and voting, and probably only 20-30 REALLY actively voting and watching new stuff in a given evening or something. So the # of people who are being a problem is probably in the 20-50 range, with the most extreme of them probably being 10-20.
At 1/10/03 04:26 AM, archwimil wrote: Is it allowed to vote 5 on every single movie?:DD
We may start seeing who's voting 5 on movies that get blammed. So someone that is constantly voting 5 on pure crap may get a warning as well. However, we'd rather a crappy flash movie stays on NG than a good flash movie gets blammed. The crappy movie would just fall into the abyss never to be seen again, the good movie would get featured in the Daily Top 5 possibly.
At 1/10/03 06:58 AM, szabo115 wrote: I agree all the way with you wade. but you have to agree with me here to.... i mean there are the biggest piles of shit submited to NG everyday that just take up space. so i click 0 yeah for blam pts cuz i know it will be blamed and cuz it sucks... maybe you should make a protection point give u more then a blam point. that might make people think twice before clicking 1 2 or 3
If we did that everyone would vote 5 and nothing would get blammed. :) The system does work for the most part, but lately we feel there is a rouge group of users mass voting 0's on every single new submission. If you don't belong to such a group, you have nothing to fear, that simple.
At 1/10/03 08:57 AM, provoko wrote: What the hell!! I see you're taking the path HITLER did when he wanted a perfect world! WTF! I can't believe you would punish people for doing what's supposed to be purly demoractic. If I want to give a flash a 0 I'll give it a 0. If I want to give something a 1 or 2 or 3 OR FOUR OR FREAKIN FIVE I WILL!
So if you want to go murder someone, you don't expect to be punished? Even if you're in a "free" country like the USA? If people are fucking up our site, we will take them out! Plain and simple.
At 1/10/03 10:08 AM, SlimShadyEK7 wrote: Wouldn't it work out if you have a limit on how many blams a submiter can get. What im saying is that many people send in movies that are pure shit and it's kinda pointless for them to have the option on submiting more movies when all they do is submit the same type of crap. So why not say if you get "X" number of movies blamed you can't submit anymore movies. I'm sure there are a lot of flaws with my idea but its just a thought.
Basically the flaw is once a user isn't allowed to submit anymore, they make a new account and start over. If they are on an IP that hundreds or thousands of other NG users share, we can't IP ban them. So we just have to rely on our mass group of faithful voters to deal with their onslaught. Again, people can vote 0 on crap! Just be sure it's crap! :)
At 1/10/03 10:13 AM, Think_Skrink wrote: They way I see things at the moment is that 0 and 1 are the blam point votes with 2 and above protection.
However, is not the level you have to reach to stay in the portal at 100 votes 1??
Therefore by voting 1 you are not actually helping remove any unworthy content? They way it is anything other than a 0 actually helps raise a movies rating up above the danger level. So the only way ppl can be sure that a movie that they think is bad gets removed is to vote 0.
See my logic?
No, because a movie needs under a 1.5 to be blammed at 100 votes, not 1. So If everyone voted 1 a movie would be blammed by the time it reached 100 votes with a score of 1.00.
At 1/10/03 10:42 AM, calmius wrote: I agree. Giving more vote power to the users who have submitted more than one movie is an excellent idea. If they have submitted something themselves and it stayed on newgrounds they should be able to have more power in voting because presumably they know more about doing flash.
Well, we'd have to make it so they'd have to have submitted a movie that got a good score. Other wise everyone would start uploading any crap .SWF they could get their hands on to increase their vote power. This might also encourage users to submit stolen flash if we require their submissions have good scores.
Also some of our submitters are the most guilty of voting 0 on other good entries in effort to knock movies above theirs down, and push their movie up. :) Say you submit your movie, you might vote 0 on everything coming in to try and ensure your movie gets Daily Top 5, or if you're #25 in the top 50 of all time you might vote 0 on every movie from #1-24. :)
Haha! Look at all those responses by me! (I have no posting limit anymore thanks to LilJim). So hopefully everyone can read through all my responses as once and it will answer many questions, and I'm sure bring up new ones. :) Let the debate continue! :)
At 1/10/03 11:38 AM, WadeFulp wrote: What you said is wrong. If you vote 0 or 1 you only get a blam point if the entry is blammed. If it's protected you don't get any points. So why someone would vote 0 or 1 on a good entry that they should know will end up being protected is beyond me, but people do it, and those who over do it will be punished.
It is the law of averages. On average, far more movies are blammed than movies are saved. Therefore, on average, voting 0 on EVERY movie will yield more blam points without having to view a single entry.
I do not do this myself, it is merely an observation.
I saw a very similar debate on a Croatian site (movie site)...
They also have 0 to 6 voting system and they solved the problem by watching every single 0 or 1 from the users. They mailed the bastards who gave 1 and 0 all the time that they are banned from the site and (since you cant bann them by IP) posted a page called "Hall of shame" and posted all the info about the bastards...
Hope this helps
I would probably guess out of the 150,000 people, only a couple thousand vote. Out of that, only a hundred or two are probably actively watching new content and voting, and probably only 20-30 REALLY actively voting and watching new stuff in a given evening or something. So the # of people who are being a problem is probably in the 20-50 range, with the most extreme of them probably being 10-20.
Wade is that all thats the problem, 20-50? That seems kinda small dont'cha think? Anyways i noticed u ACTUALLY CAN vote on a movie as a Non-user. So my question is can u help blam or protect a movie when ur a non user or just not logged in? Does a vote really count to someone who doesnt even bother to join NG's?
At 1/10/03 12:18 PM, 1337HaX0r wrote: I saw a very similar debate on a Croatian site (movie site)...
They also have 0 to 6 voting system and they solved the problem by watching every single 0 or 1 from the users. They mailed the bastards who gave 1 and 0 all the time that they are banned from the site and (since you cant bann them by IP) posted a page called "Hall of shame" and posted all the info about the bastards...
Hope this helps
OH MY GOD! You mean another website actually took steps to prevent malicious users from messing up their system?!?!! (Sarcasm)
At 1/10/03 12:21 PM, Jethro_The_Mexicano wrote: Wade is that all thats the problem, 20-50? That seems kinda small dont'cha think? Anyways i noticed u ACTUALLY CAN vote on a movie as a Non-user. So my question is can u help blam or protect a movie when ur a non user or just not logged in? Does a vote really count to someone who doesnt even bother to join NG's?
Yeah, it's a small number of people, but even a small number of people can cause problems, so everyone else needs to chill out. Also yes, users can vote and not have an account. However, they only have the vote power of 1 vote. We're more worried about users on higher levels with lots of voting points who have vote powers of 5+ voting 0. So if some non user votes 0 on a good movie it won't hurt it much. However, if 10 users with the vote power of +5 vote, that's like 50 votes of 0! Can you see our concern here people!??! Can you see why we'd want to find these people and terminate their account so instead of these 10 people being worth 50 0's they are worth only 10?!?! Does it make sense yet?!?! What if there is a group of 20 people, that could be 100 0's! So even if everyone else voted 2, 3 the movie might get blammed.
At 1/10/03 12:22 PM, WadeFulp wrote:At 1/10/03 12:18 PM, 1337HaX0r wrote: I saw a very similar debate on a Croatian site (movie site)...OH MY GOD! You mean another website actually took steps to prevent malicious users from messing up their system?!?!! (Sarcasm)
They also have 0 to 6 voting system and they solved the problem by watching every single 0 or 1 from the users. They mailed the bastards who gave 1 and 0 all the time that they are banned from the site and (since you cant bann them by IP) posted a page called "Hall of shame" and posted all the info about the bastards...
Hope this helps
Well I dont remember the sites name but i do remember that the hall of shame thing was a sucess and that the bastards (some of them were even admins!) were spit on for weeks...
It is the law of averages. On average, far more movies are blammed than movies are saved. Therefore, on average, voting 0 on EVERY movie will yield more blam points without having to view a single entry.
I do not do this myself, it is merely an observation.
Wade i like what this guy said. It seems like this might be the problem that you and Tom face. Also,is there a way to see if a user has even viewed a movie before he/she votes? Like how much time between each vote or something like that?
At 1/10/03 12:34 PM, Jethro_The_Mexicano wrote:
Wade i like what this guy said. It seems like this might be the problem that you and Tom face. Also,is there a way to see if a user has even viewed a movie before he/she votes? Like how much time between each vote or something like that?
well is it possible to make a time voting system?
once u click on a site u have to watch the movie (5-10 min)before u can vote?
At 1/10/03 12:34 PM, Jethro_The_Mexicano wrote:Wade i like what this guy said. It seems like this might be the problem that you and Tom face. Also,is there a way to see if a user has even viewed a movie before he/she votes? Like how much time between each vote or something like that?
It is the law of averages. On average, far more movies are blammed than movies are saved. Therefore, on average, voting 0 on EVERY movie will yield more blam points without having to view a single entry.
I do not do this myself, it is merely an observation.
We alread are aware of this problem, users just voting 0 on everything figuring they'll get a good % of blams. That's why we're stepping in because it's getting out of hand. We won't let these users vote blindly any more. We're researched ways to prevent users from voting before watching a movie, but I'm not sure if we found a clean way to do it.
At 1/10/03 12:39 PM, WadeFulp wrote: We alread are aware of this problem, users just voting 0 on everything figuring they'll get a good % of blams. That's why we're stepping in because it's getting out of hand. We won't let these users vote blindly any more. We're researched ways to prevent users from voting before watching a movie, but I'm not sure if we found a clean way to do it.
well can u tell us the ways?
I may be new on this site but i have a lot of
exp on other sites (such as gaming sites...)
I think Freakapotimus' idea (in a seperate topic) was a good one...change the scale from "0-5" to "A, B, C, D, F, EXPEL". It would be a much more familiar grading system for (I believe) the majority of users. The numerical score could still be kept of course, but I think people will use better sense by default with a grading system they're used to. Batting average uses it, why not the official vote submit also?
I couldn't agree more with the A B C D F idea. Overall, it makes alot of sense and I must say that I would feel more clear when reviewing I think.
I mean, nothing can get an "A" right now really, and if it does, it's at A for about 3 days while its up there in the top 50. Does that mean everything on newgrounds deserves nothing higher than a B?
I definately support changing the numbers, to letters.
At 1/10/03 01:13 PM, synj wrote: I couldn't agree more with the A B C D F idea. Overall, it makes alot of sense and I must say that I would feel more clear when reviewing I think.
The prob with the A B C D E F idea is that to the non english-american folks who dont know english very well u must explain the grades (i know them but 90 precent of my friends dont)
BTW: I like the idea
At 1/10/03 01:13 PM, synj wrote: I mean, nothing can get an "A" right now really, and if it does, it's at A for about 3 days while its up there in the top 50. Does that mean everything on newgrounds deserves nothing higher than a B?
No... Rockman Neo rocks... it gets 5 from all my friends :) and it deserves an A for about the time until a seq. comes :)
At 1/10/03 11:51 AM, WadeFulp wrote:At 1/10/03 08:57 AM, provoko wrote: What the hell!! I see you're taking the path HITLER did when he wanted a perfect world! WTF! I can't believe you would punish people for doing what's supposed to be purely democratic. If I want to give a flash a 0 I'll give it a 0. If I want to give something a 1 or 2 or 3 OR FOUR OR FREAKIN FIVE I WILL!So if you want to go murder someone, you don't expect to be punished? Even if you're in a "free" country like the USA? If people are fucking up our site, we will take them out! Plain and simple.
At 1/10/03 11:51 AM, WadeFulp wrote:
Oh come on. We're not talking about murder. We're talking about preference and freedom. If I don't like something, then I have the freedom to not like it, and no one has the right to force me to like it.
What you are doing Fulp, is forcing people to vote good on good movies. But what is a good movie???? You might think a certain movie is good, but to someone else it could be total crap.
If you think the work someone puts into a flash makes it a good movie, you're totally wrong. Take the movie Evil Dead II. The people who made Evil Dead I went back and re-did it with more money and more work. They did a lot to make that movie and make it funny. To me the movie Evil Dead II is awesome, but to a lot of other people it totally sucks.
Now imagine you are one of those people who think Evil Dead II sucks and voted 0 on some kind of metaphysical movie voting system. Haha. And some kind of higher power comes down from the heavens and smites you or turns you into a lamb! How do you feel? I mean, just because you had an opinion and thought that movie sucked balls, your life gets ruined by god.
Think about it?
Now fulp, why don't you use some fair punishment to enforce your newgrounds the right way. If you create a system with rewards, then you should create it with an equal amount of punishment. Don't be pushing around and warning people. Punish them as little as you reward them. This is what I have in mind.
If someone votes a 0 and 1 or 2,3,4, and 5 on a movie, he either gets a blam or protection point respectively. That's if the movie ends up blammed or protected. True? So an equal and fair punishment would be to take away a point if the movie ends up the way he didn't vote for it.
What I mean is if someone votes a 0 and 1 on a movie that gets protected, then he should lose a blam point. If someone votes a 2,3,4, and 5 on a movie that gets blammed, then he should lose a protection point.
If that's too crazy for you, then you can limit that punishment to people that only vote 0 and 5. If people vote 0 on something that gets protected, then they lose a blam point. And of course if people vote a 5 on something that gets blammed, then they lose a protection point.
Now isn't that fair?
The +/=/- situation:
I love this idea, if everyone is voting 0 or 5 than I say give them the option.
But how do these characters affect the score of the movie?
The way I see it + is a 5, - is a 0 and = is a 2/3 (the middle of 0 to 5).
Seeing as all of us with a Grounds Gold account have Voting Power (VP) we can use that to Attack or Defend a submission.
Each movie starts with Hit Points (max HPs would probably be affected by Newgrounds Status like Level and probably blam/protection points or even Awards).
When a submission is Attacked (with a vote of a -) its base HPs are subtracted by the Voting Power of the user. If the HPs are reduced to 0 it dies, anyone responsible for the attack are rewarded with a Blam Point.
If the submission is awesome enough to Defend, the + vote adds to its HPs, making it a powerful movie and probably not able to be killed. After 100 votes its score is revealed and all those responsible for Defending it are rewarded with a Protection Point.
I came to Newgrounds long ago to have fun watching/playing good movies and bad movies alike. I stayed because I enjoyed gaining levels and fighting the good fight, let's implement some more features and make this site an even better place to view and vote.
-T()MMY
