At 3/15/05 09:04 PM, DrLavaGoddess wrote: Have you considered that this may not be a knee-jerk reaction? You know it is possible for things to be happening behind the scenes that you are not privy to.

I'm the only one who used the term "kneejerk", so I'm going to assume that this is in part directed at me (despite the claim in a later post by you that it's directed at Dogma).

Have you considered that some of the problems may have been ongoing? And that maybe, just maybe, this was stuff happening BEFORE the upgrades?

If you're referring to the load balancer that NG was supposed to get installed about 10 days ago, and the site was going to be taken down for 4-5 hours for, but was delayed because Tim's friend's wife went into labour early, that has nothing to do with this, AFAIK.

But anyway, this all comes down to this: liljim knows about these uses of the "malicious scripts" listmakers are using, he's known about them for longer than half a year. He brought up the end of this era in January but never said it had arrived. He never ordered us to stop using them, he never even REQUESTED that we put an immediate stop to them. He didn't even suggest it. He just talked about the FUTURE. The future that hasn't arrived yet (new NG official lists).

You know, it's possible that at times, you're not completely informed. I mean, you're not working for NG are you?

Well, I am. As a volunteer. Modding the BBS. Modding NG's review system. For thousands of hours. Over the past 1.5 years. I've never asked for anything. I love this site, I don't want it slowed down by the things that I and a few other people enjoy about it, but those things were provided TO US by longrunning systems here. Do you think that every person who uses NG and loves the flash on this site... would have 0 problem whatsoever if the exp system was suddenly completely eliminated? Do you think that the site would retain the exact same amount of users or even gain them?

Stats are not the enemy of NG. Stats are the CHILD of NG, in fact. Wade is painting stats as if they are a completely separate, divorced entity... from NG itself. And that anyone who enjoys them, tracking them, listing them, etc. etc... is a leech on the bloated belly of NG's servers.

That's just not cool.

Now, to comment about Wade's point. IF someone is running something which in effect screws a site and makes it unaccessable to other users, then it can be seen as a DDOS attack. Another point, having one or two people running a script may not screw it up, but since it's become an issue due to this topic, you think that may maybe more than just a 'few' people are running them?

They're not. SK has to give people a code to use the program. He only gives it to people he knows and trusts will not mis use the program. And indeed, most of the usage of the program each and every week is by himself, not others.

The only people, AFAIK, with access to the program, are:

ShittyKitty
D0GMA
gfoxcook
ramagi
jonthomson
YoinK
Myst_Williams
RedCircle

... I think that's it. I might be wrong.

Stop acting like we're all a bunch of careless, responsibility-lacking assholes.

I seriously think you need to stop and think. All Wade is trying to do is keep this site going. If you have a problem with that, deal. If you think that Wade is just blowing off at the mouth, it just shows to me how little you *really* know about what is going on.

What's the point of keeping the site going if you scare away all the old, hardcore fans of the site? Can't people do more on this site than watch flash and post on the BBS? Are those really the only two TRUE NG activities?

Personally, I'd rather the forums be deleted than the exp and b/p systems be changed or eliminated. A lot of forum whores feel the exact opposite way. To keep both groups of people happy, Wade and the other admins have to keep ALL of that going. But obviously optimising the site's performance is a primary obligation of an admin. Destroying everything that made the site popular isn't the way to do it, though. NG would still be a great site if it was nothing but a flash portal. But if it weren't for the voting bar NEXT to movies in the flash portal... far fewer people who be on it all the time. That'd be both bad AND good for NG, of course. Less strain on the servers, less bandwidth use... less cost to run the site. But... less people enjoying the site, less people submitting flash, less people looking at advertising.

Well, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but there are things being said that I can't help but comment on

When I first saw pieoncar's post, my immediate reaction was 'I wonder if that's what's causing the BBS errors'. Having done some bot coding myself (and since BPHelper, which was discontinued for this reason), I'm always wary of how many database hits a 'script' will cause. Obviously I don't know how the backend of NG operates, but I would imagine that a BBS spider such as pieoncar's would put quite some strain on the db servers. Whether it was actually the cause of the Code 3 errors is yet to be seen, but I certainly think that discontinuing it until James can investigate is a wise move.

As to the other data-grabbing programs, there are basically two that could cause an impact on the site: ShittyKitty's NG Lister, and my version of the same principle, NG Grabber. Only four users have my program, and since this furore, I've activated the remote disable function, so no-one will be using it until James has tested it and given the OK (if he does). When he gets back from Japan, I will email him a copy of the program, so he can test out its effect on the site/db if he wishes.

I don't know how many people have a copy of SK's program, I would imagine around 10 or so - but the majority of them are using it for small pulls like ramagi's once-monthly top 500 VP users, and Myst's 50 profiles every Saturday. I could be wrong, but I don't think these kind of grabs would have a major detrimental effect on the site. The potential problems lie in the bigger pulls, particularly the ones for the NGTL.

The way that my program works (and I imagine SK's also) is this: it basically pulls the html source for the user profile pages, and then parses the info out, producing textfile lists of the stats that are available in profiles. Now I don't know if profile pages are static, or require a hit to the database when they're viewed. If they're static, then the only concern really is bandwidth; neither NGLister or NGGrabber would be having an effect on the database server (unlike pieoncar's spider).

The other thing that I would like to say is that I think you are underestimating the percentage of NG users that are interested in stats. One of the main reasons that NG is so addictive, besides the Flash Portal, is the exp/BP/etc rank system. Not everyone on NG is as obsessed with stats as the Wi/Hters, but many of them keep coming back because they suffer from human competitiveness, and want to work their way up the ranks of whichever list.

You should also be aware that the majority of people who hang out in Wi/Ht are sensible, responsible, mature users. There was never really any doubt that we would stop using the programs if requested by the admin, as gfox has pointed out.

At 3/15/05 09:04 PM, DrLavaGoddess wrote: You know, it's possible that at times, you're not completely informed. I mean, you're not working for NG are you?

At 3/16/05 02:46 AM, gfoxclock wrote: Well, I am. As a volunteer. Modding the BBS. Modding NG's review system. For thousands of hours. Over the past 1.5 years. I've never asked for anything. I love this site, I don't want it slowed down by the things that I and a few other people enjoy about it, but those things were provided TO US by longrunning systems here. Do you think that every person who uses NG and loves the flash on this site... would have 0 problem whatsoever if the exp system was suddenly completely eliminated? Do you think that the site would retain the exact same amount of users or even gain them?

Stats are not the enemy of NG. Stats are the CHILD of NG, in fact. Wade is painting stats as if they are a completely separate, divorced entity... from NG itself. And that anyone who enjoys them, tracking them, listing them, etc. etc... is a leech on the bloated belly of NG's servers.

That's just not cool.

As usual, Greg hits
the nail on the head. Stats are an integral part of the whole NG experience. At some point, anyone with a profile is going to be interested in their rank, if only on the exp list.

Anyway, there's not much else to say. Possibly the best thing is for James to have copies of the programs, and test them out while observing their effect on the site; that seems the obvious way to check how much 'damage' the are causing to NG.

At 3/16/05 05:01 AM, Denvish wrote: I don't know how many people have a copy of SK's program, I would imagine around 10 or so - but the majority of them are using it for small pulls like ramagi's once-monthly top 500 VP users, and Myst's 50 profiles every Saturday. I could be wrong, but I don't think these kind of grabs would have a major detrimental effect on the site. The potential problems lie in the bigger pulls, particularly the ones for the NGTL.

Exactly. When I did use it (I've since discontinued the review list, ironically because SK's list effectively superceded it) I only ever pulled somewhere between 800-1000 profiles when running an update. Any problems caused by the programs I'd guess are caused by the huge runs that most people don't do.

As I said earlier, I don't see how using the program uses up any more server resources than doing a list manually, unless using the program facilitates doing some kind of overly large list which would be impractical manually. I don't know how the program works, but it would surely be using precisely the same amount of DB resources in terms of requests (possibly less if loading a profile through Firefox requires you to get every stat through a separate request and the program only gets what you want - I don't know how the DB works in that respect. It'd certainly use less bandwidth).

I only ever ran the review list because I was curious where I stood in relation to everyone else, seeing how you could only ever, and, officially, can still just see, the top 10. It's the same reason I did the (manual) one-off list of users with more exp than me - to see where I stood, see who I'd be passing and that.

I have to say that this thread has descended into flames and has very little signal compared to the noise. If this was done in General by the normal cretins there, I'd have locked it. Everyone should leave the ad hominem attacks aside :-)

At 3/16/05 06:05 AM, jonthomson wrote: I don't know how the program works, but it would surely be using precisely the same amount of DB resources in terms of requests (possibly less if loading a profile through Firefox requires you to get every stat through a separate request and the program only gets what you want - I don't know how the DB works in that respect. It'd certainly use less bandwidth).

My program pulls the profile page html source, so in terms of bandwidth, it's actually using less than a manual profile pull, since it's not loading the images. In terms of the database, the effect would be identical to a manual pull of the profile.
As far as I know, SK's program operates in the same way. It may use a few extra page pulls for the review response rate stat, I'm not sure.

I want to wait for Liljim's thoughts before I go any futher, but I do want to clarify something.

I do not think all stats are stupid! I think all the stats we provide our users in their profiles, portal view pages, our user section with lists, etc, are GREAT! I was responsible for the idea behind many of them! Especially the blam/save point system with ranks, sticker stat, whistle level, etc.

When I said stupid stats, maybe I was being to general. I was referring to some of the things certain people were listing. Like how many posts to the forums an hour, etc. Things that really aren't important. Sure they are cool to know, but if they are going to put strain on our servers it isn't cool.

Some other people have replied here that have a better idea as to how these things work, like the last guy who actually has programmed some of these things. He feels pieoncar's and shittykitty's scripts could be problems, so I would ask them to stop running their scripts until Liljim can review them.

Also we are running out of bandwidth right now. We are waiting to upgrade from 500mbps to 1000mbps. Until that happens we have been going over our limit at certain times. Once this happens we have a lot of processes that get stacked up because they can't communicate properly to the person requesting the information. When this happens everything gets over loaded and you may see errors as a result. If someone runs even a small script at this time it could have very bad effects on the system.

I just feel the stats we provide should be what are important to people and that should be enough for them. However, I'm sure we can come up with some more stat lists over time. Like if people want to see the Top 500 vote power users maybe we can spit out a list like that on a regular basis, rather than limit it to 50 or 100. LilJim is very busy and has some things he would like to wrap up, so I hate to bother him with these things. Hopefully they won't be to hard for him to modify.

Also I apologize if I over reacted, but Liljim is in Japan, Tom is on the road, and I'm sitting here watching the site error and then I get people emailing me about these scripts they have that are crawling our forums for data and I flipped because I don't have any other way to deal it than to flip out. :) I guess I should try asking nicely, but I guess I feel some of these people should realize their scripts could put a lot of load on our servers and shouldn't do it in the first place, like pieoncar.

At 3/16/05 11:17 AM, WadeFulp wrote: Also I apologize if I over reacted, but Liljim is in Japan, Tom is on the road, and I'm sitting here watching the site error and then I get people emailing me about these scripts they have that are crawling our forums for data and I flipped because I don't have any other way to deal it than to flip out. :) I guess I should try asking nicely, but I guess I feel some of these people should realize their scripts could put a lot of load on our servers and shouldn't do it in the first place, like pieoncar.

So every ones of partying and left you and tim with all the work? :)
Any way if those scripts shittykitty uses are so harmfull for the site why did you say some thing about that sooner? I mean now he even mailed some people, like me, a smaller crappier version of the program he uses for those lists of him for personel use. If you would have just said it was so harmfull i'm sure shitty and the people who use that mini version would have thought twise befor using that program, not that i ever used it any way.

At 3/16/05 11:17 AM, WadeFulp wrote: I get people emailing me about these scripts they have that are crawling our forums for data and I flipped because I don't have any other way to deal it than to flip out. :)

Well, at least he did ask you.

I've not been on the Wi/Ht? forum as long as some of the other regulars, and I may not have the highest stats of any of the members, but stats are interesting to me, and to have them referred to as "stupid" hurts me. I know you're just caring about the site, but I think that for an admin to behave as you have done over the last few pages is out of order. As far as I know, nobody has ever been asked nicely to stop running scripts, and then you come in and start swearing and flapping your arms about instead of keeping calm and just finding out about the scripts and what they do/how they work.

Also, to reiterate one of gfox's points, we are willing to wait for stats, but to be sarcastic and abrasive about it just doesn't help anybody.

I've been staying silent here since page 1, but I suppose I'll bounce back in to clarify a few technical points.

At 3/16/05 05:01 AM, Denvish wrote: I don't know how many people have a copy of SK's program, I would imagine around 10 or so - but the majority of them are using it for small pulls like ramagi's once-monthly top 500 VP users, and Myst's 50 profiles every Saturday. I could be wrong, but I don't think these kind of grabs would have a major detrimental effect on the site.

I've got records of giving registration codes to D0GMA, gfoxcook, jonthomson, ramagi, RedCircle, YoinK_VineS, Denvish, _lightning_, and Myst_Williams. That's 9 users with the less-automated NGLister, and only I have the fully automated NGTotalLister program that builds my relatively enormous lists. If it ever comes to it (although I believe it won't), these users are mature and responsible enough to immediately stop using the NGLister program if instructed to do so. You see, that's what's special about the 0.001%; they're responsible enough to stop any potentially harmful activities when they're told to do so. They want to help, but if their helping is found to be harmful, they stop.

The potential problems lie in the bigger pulls, particularly the ones for the NGTL.

Right. Which is why I agreed to shut down my list immediately after being told to. It was never my intent to disobey the will of the site owners. As gfox stated earlier, liljim could have told me to stop in January and I would have done so immediately.

The way that my program works (and I imagine SK's also) is this: it basically pulls the html source for the user profile pages, and then parses the info out, producing textfile lists of the stats that are available in profiles.

That's also how my programs work. I used to pull two review pages per user as well, when I was running the Review Response Rate list, but I've only run that list twice before deciding it wasn't worth it.

Now I don't know if profile pages are static, or require a hit to the database when they're viewed. If they're static, then the only concern really is bandwidth; neither NGLister or NGGrabber would be having an effect on the database server (unlike pieoncar's spider).

Oh no, those pages are definitely dynamic. If they weren't, you wouldn't be able to see your blam/save counts changing each time you reload.

At 3/16/05 06:05 AM, jonthomson wrote: As I said earlier, I don't see how using the program uses up any more server resources than doing a list manually, unless using the program facilitates doing some kind of overly large list which would be impractical manually.

Well, the only difference between NGLister and manual pulls is the speed. NGLister can go at 6 profiles a second, whereas manual pulls can go at 0.25 a second. This difference in speeds can potentially hurt the database server if a lot of profiles are pulled.

At 3/16/05 11:17 AM, WadeFulp wrote: When I said stupid stats, maybe I was being to general. I was referring to some of the things certain people were listing. Like how many posts to the forums an hour, etc. Things that really aren't important. Sure they are cool to know, but if they are going to put strain on our servers it isn't cool.

But it's not! With my NGTL, each person's profile was getting pulled once, period. I meshed the profile lists together when the program ran, so it didn't pull each profile 13 times. As for computing things like "posts to the forums an hour", that only puts a strain on my computer, because it computes those type of numbers after it pulls the raw post count from the profile.

I'm not trying to justify the NGTL's existence, I'm just vindicating myself a bit and clarifying what was really going on with it.

Some other people have replied here that have a better idea as to how these things work, like the last guy who actually has programmed some of these things. He feels pieoncar's and shittykitty's scripts could be problems, so I would ask them to stop running their scripts until Liljim can review them.

I've always recognized the fact that such massive database pulls could be a problem. So, from day 1, if an admin ever told me to stop, I would stop, no questions asked. And I did. I would have stopped it last Sunday, but you caught me while I'm on vacation, so I can't actually stop the program until the 20th.

All you ever had to do was say "stop", and I would have stopped. liljim knew quite well about the NGTL and what it was doing, but he never said to stop. If he had, I would have.

At 3/16/05 11:37 AM, _lightning_ wrote: Any way if those scripts shittykitty uses are so harmfull for the site why did you say some thing about that sooner? I mean now he even mailed some people, like me, a smaller crappier version of the program he uses for those lists of him for personel use. If you would have just said it was so harmfull i'm sure shitty and the people who use that mini version would have thought twise befor using that program, not that i ever used it any way.

Ah, be careful with your words! You're making it sound like I'm redistributing my automated programs with malicious intent. I was working on and distributing NGLister before I ever started the Total Listing.

At 3/16/05 11:40 AM, Rooty-the-Pie wrote:

At 3/16/05 11:17 AM, WadeFulp wrote: I get people emailing me about these scripts they have that are crawling our forums for data and I flipped because I don't have any other way to deal it than to flip out. :)

Well, at least he did ask you.

Jesus. This is the shit that pisses me off. People like you putting words in my mouth and twisting around the things I said. READ my fucking sentance! Where did I say he asked me if he could run his script? NO WHERE. He emailed us to let us know he already made it and was already running it. LilJim asked people to get his OK before they ran a script like this. So I have a right to be fucking pissed off about it.

Also some people wonder why I didn't say anything before now. Well, I didn't know what scripts people were running. I'm not sure if LilJim knew exactly what ShittyKitty was doing. He'll have to answer that. From what I knew, from brief conversations with Liljim, there were people running scripts to try and get stats. I didn't know if these people were running them on a regular basis, or if they were just random instances. I didn't know people were passing around programs to hit our database for whatever they need.

Also to the person saying it used 20GB of bandwidth is 3 days. This is irrelevant. The issue isn't bandwidth, it's the strain on our database. This has nothing to do with bandwidth. Our database can only have so many open connections at one time. When users hit it with big queries, that may not be well executed, it can result in queries becoming backed up and eventually NG users getting "Internal Server Errors" because the database is busy trying to deal with the scripts some of you are running.

When LilJim returns I'm sure he'll shed a lot more light on this subject.

At 3/15/05 04:22 PM, gfoxclock wrote: I don't care too much that the majority of the site is like this unless they specifically try to infringe upon others' interests or demean them, and sadly they often do. Just look at some posts on page 2 of this thread, for instance (Undercover Studios, I'm looking in your direction).

I'm of the same mind to this. Personally, I think the chase for a high post count or ppd is the stupidest fucking thing anyone could waste their time upon here. (Until now) When the issue of any ranking about it came up, all I had to say on the matter is some variant of, "it's never really interested me," with the occasionaly referral to Dobio's last post in his thread on it. I, at least, recognize that it's not important to ME, but that that kind of thing is important to other people. I don't feel the need to disparage people over their enjoyment of posting by the bucketful and it's disconcerting (and all too typical) to see others who can't be bothered to even recognize that other people have a different set of interests with NG.

AT THAT TIME, and this is the key part, liljim never made ANY pronouncement that we must immediately cease using the NG Lister or any similar programs to compile our lists. He made it clear that sooner or later the program either would stop working or we'd be asked to stop using it, but we probably wouldn't even care all that much, as NG would be officially offering SO much more information to us that we'd be happy and sated.

Heh, and you and I spent quite a bit quibbling over details. All it amounted to was polite bickering over inane fine points, but the important part of that discussion was what was not. What we spent zero time debating was whether or not we'd ever stop doing the lists, as we both proceeded from the starting point that (eventually) there wouldn't even be a need for our lists to continue.

And if that's not cool anymore? Well, we weren't given ANY direct orders to stop in January, so don't act like we're in "violation" of some previous pronouncement or something. I find that insulting.

Like I said to SK back on page 2, James has been aware of these for some time and, if what we're doing was having anything even remotely related to a significant impact, we'd have heard from him to cut it out a long time ago.

Same amount of profiles need to be pulled for D, obviously.

The only difference is that it takes a HELL of a lot more time for the listmaker to pull the data by looking at profiles him/herself... and that it strains NG's database less (that would be the entire reason for doing it manually, of course, to save NG the trouble of NGL's impact upon it).

The DM pulls stats at 2-6 per second for me, typically averaging slightly over 2/second. Doing a manual pull, I pull and record stats at 1 per 12 seconds until I finish the EGSs then pull stats at 1/sec scanning through the PCs and PLs looking for EG upgrades. It's exactly the same volume either way and, like you said, using the DM does nothing but save me time.

Or what? Just please, liljim, shine some light onto these darkened, shadowed issues. Because Wade's comparisons of rabid, loyal, and dedicated Newgrounds users to Denial of Service virus-spewing hackers who are trying to hurt the site is insulting and quite shocking to me. And he clearly was kneejerking.

I say, let him recover from the rainbow and dive back into this when he gets home ;) His personal attacks notwithstanding, Wade's overreaction to so many things at NG has, frankly, just gotten tedious. If he spent most of the time discussing things calmly and rationally and then something set him off, people would sit up and take notice. We've just gotten inured to him being pissed off at someone or something, so, it seems to me, has been digging deeper and deeper to get his point across. Unfortunately, it's all too easy for whatever that point IS to get lost in the vitriol he happens to be unleashing at someone.

At 3/15/05 06:41 PM, Iscrulz wrote: Why cant we just see what this this page is I am sure I wouldn'tknow what it is, but I like to know because I am just curious to find out. maybe a screenshot.

AFAIK the only page that's actually available that will end up there is this one. It's obvious that James is building something behind the scenes and just wants to make sure it's ready before letting everyone get at it.

At 3/15/05 07:48 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Look asshole,

Nice to see the real Wade back :) You had us a little worried yesterday morning.

At 3/15/05 09:07 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: I'd rather invest in some healthy NG stat-whoring in my spare time than play a video game or whatever.

Hear Hear!!!

However, something like stats and these list are more important to some of us than things that may seem more important to you. Everyone has their own opinion.

Part of the reason NG attracts and keeps so many people is the fact that it has such a broad base of appeal. There's something for everyone. I rarely venture into the C&C or Politics fora, but I understand that there are people who are almost exclusively there, much as I hang out here. If they're going to dismiss the interest of the stat conscious as stupid and undercut the people who are providing what NG is not they may as well go along and simply delete the entire BBS system. After all, the BBS isn't what NG is about either, is it? For some people the only thing they do here is the BBS ... I don't understand it, but I recognize that that set of interests exists.

At 3/15/05 09:07 PM, -Gooch- wrote: See, me being a sports freak as most of you might know, I like to keep track of things. I'm what you'd like to call "a stat freak".

/me is confuddled by the oxymoron.

You are a jock-nerd? Or do you prefer sporto-geek?

At 3/15/05 08:58 PM, FIGMENTUM wrote: Your 8:42 post was a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I thought you were finally ready to address our concerns in a calm, level-headed way, but your last effort blew me away.

We had some discussions about that yesterday morning. What actually blew us away was Wade attempting to actually converse in a reasonable fashion about the matter.

At 3/15/05 08:54 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Again, this is something he already decided to take on. Maybe your scripts aren't that big of a deal, but I think he'd feel better if he gathered the data for you guys, rather than you guys try and get it yourself.

Someone's always going to want to see some squirrelly comparative list, like the Pen10k, so I don't think (the mass epithet of) "the lists" are ever going to entirely go away. That being said, there's no reason for the EGRL to continue if NG started providing available access to a mass list of the BP rankings. The only reason I began it was because I didn't have a clue who was above me and by how much. When I had extensive enough records, I started to share it. The people who care about these kinds stats, and they do represent a significant portion, albeit minority, of the regular NG users, have come to rely on the users' lists to see how they are doing. The competition for XP ranking, BPs, (ick) posts, etc. is what keeps a lot of us who don't make flash keep coming back here. But what are we to you? Apparently less than pond scum.

Liljim works his ass off to make the site perform as well as it possibly can. He has a lot of pride in what he does and I love that quality about him.

Some of us take pride in what we do as well. I get personally offended when I make an error in my updates, when someone points out what they think is an error that I've already addressed in comments they couldn't be bothered to take the time to read, and when someone wanders through threatening legal action against me for even doing it in the first place. Your going off and calling me an "asshole" and "fucking moron" doesn't bother me in the least, but equating the hard voluntary work that I do for your users with an organized systemic attack on NG is utter bullshit.

It's a shame Liljim has to waste time making all these stat lists for you guys when he has bigger and better things to work on that you will all appreciate more than some stupid stats.

It's a shame? It's a shame that NG management can't even bother to recognize something important to a core group of its users and dismisses their interest out of hand as "stupid."

However, I don't think Liljim would be making up these stat pages if he didn't have a concern about what you guys are doing.

As James has already mentioned, he used to be like us, he's just had too much other stuff to do now to be able to indulge in stat mongering. You like being in a position of unquestioned authority. I like screwing around with numbers and showing off what they did this week.

At 3/15/05 09:04 PM, DrLavaGoddess wrote: Have you considered that this may not be a knee-jerk reaction?

You don't know him very well, do you? Go back and read the first set of Wade's posts. If that's not knee-jerk, I don't know what is.

Based upon your posts, you're saying you know the Network Solution for NG right? Like inside and out?

Nope. What we're saying is that there's no possible way even my "huge" weekly pull is having an adverse affect on anyone else's NG experience and, short of SK's TL and pieoncar's BBS crawler, I've got the biggest run. What we're saying is that, since day one, all of the programs we use for the lists have been kept until tight wraps as to who is allowed to use them to keep people who don't care about NG from abusing them and causing problems.

Have you considered that some of the problems may have been ongoing? And that maybe, just maybe, this was stuff happening BEFORE the upgrades?

Actually, those make my point. There were a variety of other factors that could have been involved in the slowdowns we experienced last week. All we heard was STOP THE FUCKING SCRIPTS. Hell, I just got a Code 3 trying to pull up this window to reply.

It's not just about the hardware.

No, really? Thanks, I'd have never been able to work that one out.

If some coding happens that totaly fucks the server up, what good is the FAQ then?

I wasn't talking about coding. I was talking about the fact that the FAQ text was wrong about BP ranks on day one and has never been corrected. I was talking about how the rules changed later on whistling "free blam" entries and that, despite the amount of long term effort that could have saved by removing that text from the FAQ, no one thought to do so.

It is interesting to me that in one comment, you're all about how things need to change, and yet in the next comment, you're all about how overworked Liljim is.

Where is my discrepancy? I've said nothing about a need for change. I'd like to see there be absolutely no need for the EGRL. I've never petitioned for it or said that we should have it. I've simply retorted to claims that I'm part of some concerted, with the occasional caveat that it wasn't meant to be harmful, attack on NG

Now, to comment about Wade's point. IF someone is running something which in effect screws a site and makes it unaccessable to other users, then it can be seen as a DDOS attack.

If someone is running something which screws a site it can be seen as a DoS. If someone is hijacking other systems to engage in a DoS, it can be seen as a DDoS.

Another point, having one or two people running a script may not screw it up, but since it's become an issue due to this topic, you think that may maybe more than just a 'few' people are running them?

For the programs we use, there can't be more than 10 people who even have access to them. SK is the anomaly with the size of his run, but then it wouldn't be the Total Listing without something that size now would it, and I run the second biggest pull after him. Over the course of a month, I'd be surprised if I pull much more than his Sunday run.

At 3/15/05 09:07 PM, DrLavaGoddess wrote: Oh yeah, my previous post was to dogma.

Worked that one out, but thanks :-P~~~

At 3/15/05 09:17 PM, EveningShift wrote: Perhaps, whilst Jim is working on list/stats stuff, maybe everyone can get organiused and one person gets the information, with Wade and Tom's blessing?

With the uses distributed out as they are, it's actually easier on the system this way. Wade is acting as if none of us give a damn about NG or the affect our use of a DM makes on the system. When the program was first made, we asked SK to set it to a limited availability to keep it from "getting into the wrong hands." We care, but someone else might not, and whether through ignorance or maliciousness is moot. What we're doing isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the hits NG gets on any given day (Numa fads and the like notwithstanding), and by keeping it spread out we don't even make a splash.

At 3/15/05 09:23 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Well put. While we'd love to keep everyone happy, some of these stat people are being very selfish. I don't meant to offend them, but they need to realize we need to prioritize what we do. We have limited resources as far as coding the site, we only have James to do this stuff. Should 99.999% of our users have to wait and wait for cool new features they want and would enjoy because Liljim is forced into catering to the other %0.0001 of our users that want to know every fucking stupid stat?

Well, since we're into numbers again, and you continue to denigrate the volume of users who care about these things:

At 1/20/05 11:40 AM, WadeFulp wrote: LilJim just told my dumb ass it's 1.4%. Okay, so 1.4% of our daily audience cares about points then, and 98.6% don't.

Of that 1.4% who deposit (over 6k people) whom one could consider to be regular NG users, the list makers alone constitute more than .0001%. I'd be hard-pressed to guess at what % of the NG regulars also cares about the stats related to the points, but it's enough that this belief you have that we are only a handful beneath your notice is obviously misplaced.

The EGRL site has had 1k hits a month of people who actually come in through the front page instead of going directly to the stat pages. My site caters to just one "fucking stupid stat" of the gamut in which people have interest, and I only deal with Elite Guards and higher, further reducing the volume who would possibly even care about my site to less than 1,500 people. Compared to something like Numa Numa? ~pfft~ it's nothing. We do constitute more than a wart of NG's underbelly and treating us like something less than that should be beneath you. Whether you choose to understand it or not, there are people who like to see stats and we are their outlet.

They say these stats are important to them, but are they willing to compromise Newgrounds.com because they need their stats?

Long before you even became aware of these stat programs, we had been taking steps to ensure that we would not be causing NG any problems. Apparently it has completely slipped your mind that, back when I started the EGRL and decided that I wanted to include links to the NG profiles of the users, that I e-mailed James, Tom, and you and ASKED if doing so would cause a problem for NG. How is that me not caring, "about the stie and the other peopel who use it?" The only thing that's changed in the past year has been our personal opinions of each other.

OR they could just wait until we're ready to give them the stats they want. Even if they have to wait a year. We've had a few things in the works for over a year now that keep getting put off because we have to attend to these problems.

~shrug~ There's always going to be something more important, particularly when they are viewed as "fucking stupid stats" and "these problems" that are somehow hindering you from getting to the things you view as more important. If/when we get NG official stats, I'll be the first person at the party ... well, maybe second behind Greg :-) ... and probably spend most of the party nitpicking details with he and James. Hard as it is for you to comprehend, we find this kind of thing to be fun.

At 3/15/05 09:37 PM, WadeFulp wrote: It's the people that don't care about Newgrounds and just want to know some stupid stats, like "I HAVE TO KNOW IF I'M STILL RANKED 304 FOR B/P POINTS! I DON'T CARE IF IT SLOWS THE SITE DOWN FOR THE OTHER 500,000 VISITORS! ME ME ME!"

None of the list makers have that attitude, a fact you still refuse to acknowledge or accept.

At 3/15/05 10:08 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

At 3/15/05 09:57 PM, NemX2 wrote: It would mean a lot if you would tell me the topics I have made

We could probably have a "list topics by author" search.

Actually, that's an interesting thought. I've started down that path before but never completed the thought process on it. I know the text search was unfeasible when he tried to reemplace it, so it will be interesting to see if that is viable.

At 3/15/05 10:15 PM, WadeFulp wrote: You mean we actually give our users a some what useless stat like that? What do you know!

Where do they go to find out how much they need to get to 303? What do you know? What do you know? It's why things like the EGRL and the XP list started in the first place. We didn't know, so we started to try to find out. Then, since we had all that information, we decided to (apparently made the mistake of) help other users out by sharing it.

At 3/15/05 10:16 PM, Myst_Williams wrote:
The fact that you cant compromise is sad in a way. There must be a way around it so all parties are happy. LilJim i am sure could find a solution as he has tried to discuss this topic i nthe past and without prosecution i might add.

liljim just has this way of wandering into a thread, beating your inconsitencies into the ground with facts and wandering off that leaves a smile of stunned chagrin on your face. He's piped in a number of times in the discussions Greg and I have had about it, not once telling us we were doing anything harmful, let alone tossing around the inanity of sending the feds to my door.

At 3/15/05 10:42 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

Wow, and you aren't trying to insult us?

So you're saying you don't care about the site? I thought you said you did care about the site? If this is the case I'm not insulting you. Maybe I'm insulting no one. Maybe I am being to extreme. If everyone who is stat happy would happily give up their stats for the benefit for NG then I have no problem with them. You're taking my statements out of context, making it look like I'm upset with people like yourself when I am not.

He's obviously pointing out the inconsistencies in your diatribes. You harp on and on about "stupid fucking stats" and the idiots who care about them, then expect that, in your next post where you claim you're only insulting the people who will do whatever it takes to get their stats, that we'll somehow "forget" that you said anything the first time. Things are not being taken out of context, they are direct quotes of you and your statements to which people are taking offense.

Again, if you feel this way I don't have a problem with you and you don't fit the profile of the type of person I was describing. Hopefully no one fits the profile I was describing, that would be dandy!

Again, none of the makers do.

Maybe you guys need to compromise.

Maybe you need to go back to the attitude you had Monday morning instead of tossing insults hither, thither, and yon, where there was room for discussion and compromise.

The fact is we shouldn't even be addressing this. We should just tell certain people who maybe causing problems to stop and wipe out anyone who doesn't comply. The fact that we are paying attention to this should be flattering.

The attention we've been given by you has been entirely unflattering.

At 3/15/05 11:09 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: I am not sure how that makes sense really, it seems your beating around something, but i dont really quite understand you.

It's typical internet nonsense. Somehow you're supposed to believe that what someone says now supercedes anything they said before ... and forget it ever happened.

We should just tell certain people who maybe causing problems to stop and wipe out anyone who doesn't comply.

Such things like that show that you are one-minded and not open to the arguments at hand. Maybe i missed the overall argument, but it seems that the long posts by Dogma (which i only half read) led to an argument that you could not find logic in? Or simply do not want to agree with, which contradicts my last statement.

He's latched onto minor and aside comments and run with them rather than addressing any of the other points I've broached. What was addressed the most out of my first posts on this matter? The fact that I, as a final sentence, stated, "Maybe you should check with him (liljim) before you volunteer him for more work." I thought it was funny and a nice way to take some of the sting out of some of the previous comments by using it as a closer. From the reply, I might as well have not wasted my time writing anything else.

At 3/15/05 11:46 PM, ReconRebel wrote: After reading through this thread what really pisses me off is not not only the audacity of your statements but the fact that you're wrong. Period. If you want to play with bandwidth then start your own site.

Glad I gave you as much a chuckle as you did to me =) I've had the fact that bandwidth is not a factor in this issue brought to my attention a few times.

At 3/15/05 11:51 PM, Evark wrote: I guess the problem here is between the old users and the new. Since all the old users and the people who enjoy the stats are generally regarded as the ones with power on this site (given more voting power, given more "respect" based on ranks and such, allowed to vote on movies that win $250 each month, etc.) they also feel like they should have more say then the general user of Newgrounds who only visits like 2 times a month or whatever.

To a large degree that's true. The people who come here a lot are the ones who get all the ads that pay for the site. I used to use POW! for the simple reason that it let the ad open, then closed it ... giving NG credit for the ad hit. Now that I use AdBlocker I block the ones that make noises and make my cursor flicker, because those detract from NG. Do you really want the Duck Hunt Dog laughing when you're trying to watch a UJ flash?

We, hard as it is for me to say this but, yes, even people like -Err0r, are the ones who make this site what it is. If a customer who's been coming into your bakery every day for the last two years asks about you starting to carry cinnamon rolls, you're much more likely to consider it than if some random person drives through and asks for one.

It's pretty much the difference between the mostly indifferent majority and the passionately interested minority. I fit somewhere in between. It's cool to me to have these stats, but I wouldn't fight tremendously if they were all wiped out completely. I do care about this site, and it's statistical contents, but it isn't that important in my life.

That's what I'd consider to be "normal," but what if the proposal were to eliminate the BBS? The Audio Portal? Obviously, not the same context as those are provided by NG, but the effect is similar. I so rarely hit the AP that if it went away and no one said anything, it'd take me weeks to notice it was missing. I'm sure that there are people who come to this site once a week and have never brought up a BBS page. To them, it would make no difference if it went away. There would, though, in each instance be a core group of people who do have an interest in those being maintained and I can guarantee we'd hear from them.

I'm not upset about losing stat lists because it means an official one is appearing soon.

Unfortunately, it doesn't mean an official one is appearing any time soon.

Either way, this post is too long.

Nah, you still had over 4k characters of room ;)

At 3/16/05 02:36 AM, gfoxclock wrote: He's the only one of us who can program, basically.

Sorry, that just made me laugh for its truth. It never even dawned on me to try and find someone to make something like it, and SK just appeared out of the blue and made it for us.

This reminds me of something else, though... from January of 2004. Jesus Cyborg had similarly impressive programming skills to SK... but HIS program was a NG autovoter program to "help" with the templist thing to get the 100 votes up to 200 votes for UJ... while people like myself, Joe, and many others, had been doing that work MANUALLY for months.

SK is a valued member of the community, no question. And he doesn't make his program available to anyone like JC did. He restricts it.

As I recall, the problem with JesusCyborg's autovoter was that people were using it on NG for UJ flash to earn BPs. No one, not even JC had their accounts reset over what was an obvious violation of the intent of the Portal ... that people were to watch a flash before tossing a vote at it. All that happened was that the tooltips were changed so that the BA of an author was removed from the mouseover.

All he had to do was ask us to stop in January. Stop immediately. And we would have. As I said on page 3. But he didn't ask. I doubt liljim is too hesistant to ask because he doesn't want to hurt feelings. In fact, in the past, he HAS asked for people to immediately stop doing things (like Denvish's portal-refresher or whatever).

Or earlier. The original DM was created back in August, and there was a lot of discussion about its uses, possible improvements, and potential abuses for at least the next month. If we had heard boo about it causing problems, we'd have all dropped it like a hot potato.

Perhaps you should talk to ShittyKitty about him doing some voluntary admin work for NG in regards to these stat pages liljim is struggling to balance with more important NG work. He could just send the files to liljim and liljim could upload them if they check out or something.

Now that is a good thought. SK certainly has better knowledge than the rest of us with respect to the coding that would be required to maintain a series of large listings. Tack on the fact that, as a lister himself, he's got the experience and mindset to get something that would meet (probably exceed) our desires in place. I can't see James saying no to help, either ;)

At 3/16/05 02:45 AM, gfoxclock wrote: Like I said, "only having James" to do it... is your own choice. If I had the skills, I would volunteer myself to help him out. I'm sure there are others. Yes, Wade, that's how deep our SICK love of statistics drives us. We'd do shit for no pay to help NG and help other stat-loving freaks. That wonderful 0.0001% of your userbase (and come on.... How many users deposit exp at least once a month? I strongly suspect it's higher than 0.0001%... but then again, perhaps you're talking about overall visitors to the site, including people who never sign up for a NG account, depsite the best efforts of everyone who asks people to sign up for free in front page posts, such as Tom and yourself).

The last time I saw Wade toss out stats about that was here. It was just for a Saturday, but presumably visitors to the site can be extrapolated and runs a similar reflection to the ratios of daily uploads.

Some people only love flash here. They don't even bother to vote. I was one of those people, from 1999-2002. I ended up signing up for a NG account, but I never bothered to get too deeply into the site. I came by maybe once a month to play McFretN games or Assassin or things like that. I deposited grounds gold every now and then, but not very often... and that was the extent to it. I never knew what a blam was during the old system.

Heh. Me, who runs the EGRL, had been visiting the site for ~3 months before I did more than deposit XP ... and a couple of months before I even started doing that.

It wasn't until late 2002/early 2003 that I introduced myself by accident (for the most part) to the review system, the BBS, and the blam/protect system.

I don't think I even bothered much with the BBS until after I hit EGP in early 2003. It's not the most important part of my "NG experience" by any means, but I do enjoy it.

And what did these stat-based systems do? Well, they got me more interested in coming to NG EVERY DAY. If I hadn't had stats to pull me in completely, I never would have SEEN the amount of flash I have experienced. And I certainly never would have become a mod on this site or anything else. I would have stayed a casual fan of NG who didn't make a point of coming by that often. Yet it's a "SHAME" that liljim spends any time at all making anything to do with stats here on NG? Who made the stat pages to begin with, anyway? Who had the idea for a top 50 exp list, or a top 50 b/p list, or a top 50 popularity list (now the stickerlist has replaced it, of course)?

The stats are what keep a lot of the regulars interested in returning. Some of us have little or no skill in flash, so stats are what makes us feel involved. Even people like Denvish who can make great flash still take great peasure in the stat topics and discussions.

We ARE perfectly willing to compromise. A huge chunk of my single post on page 3 was exactly ABOUT us compromising, and the various ways we WOULD have compromised two months ago.

When the profiles were altered to change the link of the reviews, what happened? We adapted and went back to manual pulls. If nothing else, it certainly shows that we're flexible ... but I'm certainly not bending over backwards when I've got someone breathing "FBI ... DoS" down my neck.

Until that time, I will be cancelling both my Top 500 Voting Power list and my pentalist in their current forms. That'll be MY personal compromise on this matter.

That's a shame. I've never really understood the Pen10k myself, but I looked forward to the VP list at each update. No chance your compromise will be manual pulls? Pretty please?

liljim, I look forward to... and am still waiting for... that light I hoped you would shed on these matters... back on page 3.

Let him get back from vacation :-P~~~~

At 3/16/05 02:46 AM, gfoxclock wrote:
I'm the only one who used the term "kneejerk", so I'm going to assume that this is in part directed at me (despite the claim in a later post by you that it's directed at Dogma).

No you weren't and you still should have edited this ;)

But anyway, this all comes down to this: liljim knows about these uses of the "malicious scripts" listmakers are using, he's known about them for longer than half a year. He brought up the end of this era in January but never said it had arrived. He never ordered us to stop using them, he never even REQUESTED that we put an immediate stop to them. He didn't even suggest it. He just talked about the FUTURE. The future that hasn't arrived yet (new NG official lists).

I think we all concluded that there was no reason to continue our lists if they were replaced by NG lists, and that was about the extent of it.

Stats are not the enemy of NG. Stats are the CHILD of NG, in fact. Wade is painting stats as if they are a completely separate, divorced entity... from NG itself. And that anyone who enjoys them, tracking them, listing them, etc. etc... is a leech on the bloated belly of NG's servers.

That's just not cool.

Ah but wait, aren't you taking his comments out of context and being insulted by things not directed at you? :-P~~~~

The only people, AFAIK, with access to the program, are:

ShittyKitty
D0GMA
gfoxcook
ramagi
jonthomson
YoinK
Myst_Williams
RedCircle

And of those, jon had already stopped using his a while ago, while SK was the only one who used it for any significant volume and with frequency and even he's set to stop using it.

... I think that's it. I might be wrong.

You remembered YoinK, whom I'd likely have forgotten, but I don't have anyone I could think to add to that.

What's the point of keeping the site going if you scare away all the old, hardcore fans of the site? Can't people do more on this site than watch flash and post on the BBS? Are those really the only two TRUE NG activities?

Apparently they are the only activities worth doing ... that and trying every gimmick under the sun to get TotW ...

But... less people enjoying the site, less people submitting flash, less people looking at advertising.

And less money to keep the site going. Hell, I even signed up for Newdgrounds ages ago so I could toss money at these guys for a few months. Wade claims over and over that they make no money off the stickers so I don't bother with them. That just leaves the advertising and, unlike most people, I let most of them run and occasionally click through so that they get credit for the hit. Apparently, I'm still just some selfish asshole who doesn't care about the site.

At 3/16/05 05:01 AM, Denvish wrote:
Only four users have my program, and since this furore, I've activated the remote disable function, so no-one will be using it until James has tested it and given the OK (if he does).

Heh ... so that's why mine doesn't work ;)

The way that my program works (and I imagine SK's also) is this: it basically pulls the html source for the user profile pages, and then parses the info out, producing textfile lists of the stats that are available in profiles. Now I don't know if profile pages are static, or require a hit to the database when they're viewed. If they're static, then the only concern really is bandwidth; neither NGLister or NGGrabber would be having an effect on the database server (unlike pieoncar's spider).

As I understand it (over and over lol), each is a DB hit, which is where any potential issues could arise. I hammered out the bandwidth for the text pulls on the html source and it's miniscule relative to everything else that goes on around here.

You should also be aware that the majority of people who hang out in Wi/Ht are sensible, responsible, mature users. There was never really any doubt that we would stop using the programs if requested by the admin, as gfox has pointed out.

That being said, now that Wade is pulling this nonsense, I'm more inclined to wait until James gets back before doing anything differently.

As usual, Greg hits
the nail on the head. Stats are an integral part of the whole NG experience. At some point, anyone with a profile is going to be interested in their rank, if only on the exp list.

And they usually start getting interested in BPs by the time they notice that their VP is now going up by .01 every 3 days instead of by .1 every day. Personally, I think that system was a great idea. It gets people into feeling that they have some real weight behind their vote power early on, and with the BPs they can then find another way to increase it fairly rapidly when the XP isn't doing it fast enough for their tastes.

Anyway, there's not much else to say. Possibly the best thing is for James to have copies of the programs, and test them out while observing their effect on the site; that seems the obvious way to check how much 'damage' the are causing to NG.

Probably the best way to go about it ... just a quick announcement to us to make sure we're not doing anything other than normal that might affect the control model would be the only thing I'd add to that.

At 3/16/05 06:05 AM, jonthomson wrote: Any problems caused by the programs I'd guess are caused by the huge runs that most people don't do.

Keyword : don't.

I don't know how the DB works in that respect. It'd certainly use less bandwidth).

Again, the issue (as I keep getting told lol) is not in the bandwidth. Even if bandwidth were the problem, the html code behind each page that gets pulled (with no graphics) averages 12k. Your max run of 1k profiles only used ~11MB of bandwidth to get that text and, given the average rate of pull, was still short of .03mbps draw.

Everyone should leave the ad hominem attacks aside :-)

Alien Hominid attacks? I never said anything wrong about Tom's game :-P~~~

.

This will be my sixth ~6k post I've worked on for the last 2 hours ... everything else that's been posted after jon I'm going to let sit for a little while while I go *dareIsayit* get some BPs :-P~~~

Whew, I think this has turned into a rather big and oversized issue. Wade, I think I can understand how you may be feeling now. You have so many e-mails to reply to then you have to look into stuff like this.

I think if you guys really want to speak this out, it would be much better suited via e-mail. I don't know, but there's a lot of stuff going on in here as of current, most of these posts pointed towards Wade. I'm not going to go give my opinion on what I think of this whole issue.

I am not too sure how bad this data pulling from the servers is, but I think it would be best to keep it down for now (sigh, I'm giving my opinion). Maybe it's that bad, it had created these errors Wade has said. Maybe not. But at least try to understand Wade's side of the story as your own. If you had your own website that kept exceeding some kind of bandwidth limit and you didn't know why. Then you hear that someone had been running scripts or something from your website, how would you feel?

Anyway, that's all I say. There's more to one side in a story.

At 3/16/05 07:07 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

At 3/16/05 11:40 AM, Rooty-the-Pie wrote:

At 3/16/05 11:17 AM, WadeFulp wrote: I get people emailing me about these scripts they have that are crawling our forums for data and I flipped because I don't have any other way to deal it than to flip out. :)

Well, at least he did ask you.

Jesus. This is the shit that pisses me off. People like you putting words in my mouth and twisting around the things I said. READ my fucking sentance!

No. You read my post. I said that being sarcastic and abrasive won't help anybody, and if you'd pointed it out in a sensible manner, I would have been fine with it, but as you didn't, then fuck it. I didn't aim to twist the things you said and put words in your mouth, it was a genuine mistake, and I apologise. I thought I read pieoncar say in this thread that he emailed you to ask you if it was okay, but obviously I didn't. I made a mistake, fuck a doodle doo. Nobody's perfect.

I am assuming this is the reason stat topics are not allowed, besides the fact nobody really cares who is rank 1097 in blam/save points or how many posts were made at 5am. Its isnt hard to figure out when peak times on the BBS are hard, we don't need someone runnign a script to figure it out, and we dont really care exactly how many posts were made so we can figure out the best time to make a thread.

At 3/18/05 06:03 AM, White_Rhyno wrote: Just to sort of clear thing up a bit, surfing ng is a bit like ordering food at a resturant. You place you're order, it get's processed, then served up to you. If some fat fucker comes in before you and orders 100 burgers, you're going to have to wait for the chefs to cook up his order before you get your food. Pieoncar's app is like the fat guy ordering 100,000 burgers from the NG server.

At least some people understand. I'm still waiting to see what LilJim has to say, but he told me he's sharpening up his battle-axe to take on some of the people here. :)

He'll let us know how these scripts impact the site, but let's forget about them for a moment and discuss what happens when a script really does impact the site.

When our database server is tied up with someone's script thousands of other users may get errors. Some will refresh and fight through it, others will leave. Let's say the script results in us having 300,000 less portal views than we normally would have if the site was running smoothly. That's 300,000 less portal views our Flash artists get. That's 300,000 less pages we didn't get to serve ads on. So we lost revenue, Flash artists lost views, we may have lost repeate visitors, etc. The effects of some of these scripts are down right detrimental. To slow up a site of our size even a little bit can have HUGE negative effects.

This is why DOS attacks are illegal. If you run something on the site that results in us losing money, visitors, etc, you can bet that's illegal and we can rake you over the coals for it.

If someone runs a script that does bog down our database server it could easily result in us lossing out on thousands of dollars of revenue a month. You guys don't think that would be grounds for a law suit? I'd hate to see anyone here take that chance.

At 3/18/05 04:07 PM, WadeFulp wrote: stuff

Wade... $20.

Just gimme the $20, and the problem will "disappear".

No questions.

im still getting the errors. I wonder if everone stoped running these scripts.

At 3/18/05 05:51 PM, Love_Daddy wrote: im still getting the errors. I wonder if everone stoped running these scripts.

Well, there's no lists that update at this time (in reference to my strictly-controlled NGLister program), my NGTL updated on Wednesday and will update on Sunday before I can stop it (I'm currently on vacation), and pieoncar isn't running his program any more, after the upheaval it's caused. So, maybe, just maybe, it isn't just the scripts that are causing the problems. Ever thought of that, before jumping to conclusions?

At 3/18/05 06:09 PM, ShittyKitty wrote: Well, there's no lists that update at this time (in reference to my strictly-controlled NGLister program), my NGTL updated on Wednesday and will update on Sunday before I can stop it (I'm currently on vacation), and pieoncar isn't running his program any more, after the upheaval it's caused. So, maybe, just maybe, it isn't just the scripts that are causing the problems. Ever thought of that, before jumping to conclusions?

It may have nothing to do with the scripts, or there are other people running scripts we don't know about. Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: It may have nothing to do with the scripts, or there are other people running scripts we don't know about. Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Wade, it could also be due to the lack of the "Load Balancer"

But, a general investigation into people running programs/scripts is definitely a good idea, no matter what.

At 3/18/05 05:45 PM, DanMalo wrote: Just gimme the $20, and the problem will "disappear".

No questions.

Putting hats on their dogs won't solve anything.

I saved you $20, Wade.

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: It may have nothing to do with the scripts, or there are other people running scripts we don't know about. Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Oh yes, I'm just trying to point out that every single error on Newgrounds isn't due to just the scripts. There are other causes out there. I won't deny that the scripts can cause problems, though. I'm just tired of having "scripts" blamed for every single problem.

They may not be a sole cause, but the are an unneccisariy burden on NG resources. How many people truely care about the stats people are pulling with these scripts? I mean honestly maybe a handful. So why should everyone else have to deal with extra error messages because of this extra load. Maybe there would only be 10 errors and not 15 or 20 (you get the idea, I know this is nto what it really breaks down but its good enough to demonstarate). So thats an extra 5 or 10 errors a minute, now multiple this by how many minutes are in a day, a little change makes a big difference. If you really are dying to know who has the 13056 most exp points, why not email liljim and see what you can work out. Maybe he can't do it for you cause he is too busy, maybe he is such a nice guy he can. But in the end does it really matter? I mean it may be nice to be able to know, but are you going to die if you dont find out how many posts were made a 4am?

At 3/18/05 10:37 PM, White_Rhyno wrote: I guess the only person who can clear this up is liljim.

So why are you still arguing then.

How about we all just FUCKING WAIT. Is that SO hard to do?

At 3/18/05 10:52 PM, RedCircle wrote:

At 3/18/05 10:37 PM, White_Rhyno wrote: I guess the only person who can clear this up is liljim.

So why are you still arguing then.

How about we all just FUCKING WAIT. Is that SO hard to do?

I've had that mentality for the entire time this little arguement has been taking place

Thanks for the replies, Denvish, jon, Dogma, etc.... I don't think any more can be added to those threads of conversing, so I'm not going to quote them, though.

At 3/18/05 04:07 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

At 3/18/05 06:03 AM, White_Rhyno wrote: Pieoncar's app is like the fat guy ordering 100,000 burgers from the NG server.

At least some people understand. I'm still waiting to see what LilJim has to say, but he told me he's sharpening up his battle-axe to take on some of the people here. :)

We ALL understand, we just weren't all sure that liljim will think it's quite as bad as White_Rhyno made it out to be. And I don't mean pieoncar's program, I'm talking about SK's program and the way that everyone BUT SK himself uses it. Maybe pieoncar's BBS-crawler is insanely degrading to the BBS's performance. That's part of the reason I asked him not to make lists for people of the topics they've made until he talked to you or another admin about it.

At 3/18/05 10:39 AM, Rooty-the-Pie wrote: I thought I read pieoncar say in this thread that he emailed you to ask you if it was okay, but obviously I didn't. I made a mistake, fuck a doodle doo. Nobody's perfect.

Pieoncar made his program, made his lists, and made this thread without mentioning it to any mods or admins. Then, *I* told him to e-mail the admins and ask them if it was okay to make lists for people of the topics they'd made. I had concerns that that wasn't the best idea, so I wanted to make sure he didn't get into serious shit. Little did I know that Wade was going to get upset about the ENTIRE thing, and not just that minor part of it.

So there you go. He SHOULD have e-mailed liljim weeks and weeks ago, instead of waiting until liljim was out of town to debut this whole thing on the BBS, but hindsight is 20/20, eh?