At 3/15/05 07:48 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

" Look asshole", " you fucking moron!" "preparing for you fuckers." " for you fuckers" to do it : yourself!

So now all Newgrounds members are "fuckers"? That was kinda mean on DOGMA, Wade.

At 3/15/05 08:22 PM, Dave wrote: So now all Newgrounds members are "fuckers"? That was kinda mean on DOGMA, Wade.

No, I love all NG users, I just like to be an ass sometimes. :) Dogma was pushing my buttons though.

At 3/15/05 08:22 PM, Dave wrote: So now all Newgrounds members are "fuckers"? That was kinda mean on DOGMA, Wade.

BTW, not all NG members are making stat lists and getting a hard on over them. Maybe like %0.00001 of them. Still, they aren't fuckers. I was a bit over the top with that. I know they mean no harm and are just trying to enjoy the site.

At 3/15/05 08:30 PM, WadeFulp wrote: No, I love all NG users...

Even Bedn?

So i read like 60% of the posts in this thread, but i have not the time t oread them all. My list is informal to some, but really is not as important as Shittykitty's list etc, but do i have to stop it? I doubt i should have to, it is a small list.

I pull stats from approx 50 profilesevery sunday at 12 noon. I plan on working that up to about 100, but not much more than that. This amount of stat pulling is miniscule compared to Sk's 19000 or whatever it was on a wednesday. If you want me to stop pulling those stats, than no problem, but i only pull stats from 50 profiles as of now, and my system of choosing whos prfiles to pul lfrom is solely based on request, so little new people have requested lately, showing me that there should be little growth.

And as for all the arguing etc. If the stat pulling really is the reason behind this errors etc on NG, then by all means, everyone should stop. And Wade, i understand where you are coming from with the little attitude bit earlier, but it is true, you do run the site and if requested the lists should be stopped. Just give me a nay, or yay for my list. Just remember how tiny this list is before making a decision, because i do enjoy updating it and the information is appealing to some, ecspecially myself.

At 3/15/05 08:39 PM, phileeguy wrote:

At 3/15/05 08:30 PM, WadeFulp wrote: No, I love all NG users...

Even Bedn?

...yes.... :(

At 3/15/05 08:43 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: And as for all the arguing etc. If the stat pulling really is the reason behind this errors etc on NG, then by all means, everyone should stop. And Wade, i understand where you are coming from with the little attitude bit earlier, but it is true, you do run the site and if requested the lists should be stopped. Just give me a nay, or yay for my list. Just remember how tiny this list is before making a decision, because i do enjoy updating it and the information is appealing to some, ecspecially myself.

Well, I'll say this. It sounds like what you're doing probably isn't a big deal. However, I have concern about what ShittyKitty is doing and the guy who started this topic. I would say if you are running a script on a large scale like that, stop. Stop until LilJim has a chance to address this and let us know what is okay and what isn't. I know he's working on stats for you guys. I don't know exactly which stats's he's going to make available. He led me to believe that once he has the ground work set up he can easily add whatever stats are needed. He just needs to build the system to display them and what not first. Again, this is something he already decided to take on. Maybe your scripts aren't that big of a deal, but I think he'd feel better if he gathered the data for you guys, rather than you guys try and get it yourself.

Liljim works his ass off to make the site perform as well as it possibly can. He has a lot of pride in what he does and I love that quality about him. I know when things aren't running well he isn't happy. So when I see people running crap that maybe resulting in our database server taking a performance hit I know he's not going to like that, even if he doesn't come out and say it to all of you. I will say something about it because I don't want our resources being misused, even if the people doing it didn't mean any harm, they need to know we don't approve of it.

It's a shame Liljim has to waste time making all these stat lists for you guys when he has bigger and better things to work on that you will all appreciate more than some stupid stats. However, I don't think Liljim would be making up these stat pages if he didn't have a concern about what you guys are doing. So you can take that however you want. Those are the facts. You don't have to listen to me go off, make your own conclusions about the situation.

At 3/15/05 08:30 PM, WadeFulp wrote: I just like to be an ass sometimes.

Damn man, no wonder we get so many people disgusted at all the admin ass-kissery. Continually question something Wade says, even if it's in a calm, rational and intelligent manner, you get fucking SHOT DOWN. Granted, your freedom to be an ass is your own, but I personally don't see it appropriate when a fan is simply expressing opinions and concerns. I understand D0GMA's tone/assumptions/whatever may have ticked you off, but when someone's trying to converse with you and understand your reasoning, ESPECIALLY in the way D0GMA did, a little patience goes a long way.

Your 8:42 post was a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I thought you were finally ready to address our concerns in a calm, level-headed way, but your last effort blew me away.

Save the abuse for the idiots, eh?

NG sure has a lot on thier plate right now. Guys your server is gonna be crazy with all these scripts, even the ones LilJim will run. Well good luck i guess.

Have you considered that this may not be a knee-jerk reaction? You know it is possible for things to be happening behind the scenes that you are not privy to.

Based upon your posts, you're saying you know the Network Solution for NG right? Like inside and out? Going on that one, since when is it your business what the NetSol is?

Have you considered that some of the problems may have been ongoing? And that maybe, just maybe, this was stuff happening BEFORE the upgrades?

And you know this because? ... there is a lot going on behind the scenes in that ever mentioned Network Solution I am reffering to. You have *NO* idea what is going on. So don't harp. It seems to me you have absolutely no idea what goes on in the background to make a site run faster. It's not just about the hardware.

You know, it's possible that at times, you're not completely informed. I mean, you're not working for NG are you?

Well, it's nice to have you pointing things out, but again, it goes back to how much work has to be done to keep a site UP, not just changing information to make it the way it should be visually. If some coding happens that totaly fucks the server up, what good is the FAQ then?

It is interesting to me that in one comment, you're all about how things need to change, and yet in the next comment, you're all about how overworked Liljim is. Make up your mind. You realize that this site is run by technically about 3 or 4 people total. That's saying something for a site that gets hit as often as this one does.

Now, to comment about Wade's point. IF someone is running something which in effect screws a site and makes it unaccessable to other users, then it can be seen as a DDOS attack. Another point, having one or two people running a script may not screw it up, but since it's become an issue due to this topic, you think that may maybe more than just a 'few' people are running them?

I seriously think you need to stop and think. All Wade is trying to do is keep this site going. If you have a problem with that, deal. If you think that Wade is just blowing off at the mouth, it just shows to me how little you *really* know about what is going on.

At 3/15/05 08:54 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Well, I'll say this. It sounds like what you're doing probably isn't a big deal. However, I have concern about what ShittyKitty is doing and the guy who started this topic. I would say if you are running a script on a large scale like that, stop.

I understand, and as much as i dont agree at times with some of the arguing earlier on, i respect your decision solely because you do co-run the site, however, the argument back in January showed many clausable arguments that puts me in a position of inconclusion. My stat list is obviously quite small, so i will continue it for the next couple weeks, but i am sure that once LilJim comes back, he will post somewhere in Wi/Ht? forum and i will be sure to adress this to him just in case, unless he adresses it himself from his vacation sooner.

I will say something about it because I don't want our resources being misused, even if the people doing it didn't mean any harm, they need to know we don't approve of it.

Well, SK has seemed to stop his list as has a few others. So obviously people respect that you dont approve of it.

It's a shame Liljim has to waste time making all these stat lists for you guys when he has bigger and better things to work on that you will all appreciate more than some stupid stats.

Obviously, we dont think it is stupid, or we wouldn't be asking or fighting for it. Some things may seem insignificant to others, but to us, obviously stats are something we appreciate or find ourselves investing time in. I'd rather invest in some healthy NG stat-whoring in my spare time than play a video game or whatever. Although i have little spare time, i appreciate wasting it on NG, and i think you guys appreciate that also, because without us - the fans - there really is no a site; even if the Wi/Ht? frequents are not the basis of the entire NG population.

As for us appreciating other things more: maybe so, but i can't really say, because i am not 100% sure what else he is working on. Though i do know that i appreciate everything he does for the site on level or another. However, something like stats and these list are more important to some of us than things that may seem more important to you. Everyone has their own opinion.

And thank you for adressing my questions as well.

Oh yeah, my previous post was to dogma. I didn't feel like keeping their quoted text, but forgot to mention that.

Are these stats really worth it people. Ng has a lot to do and lots of scripts to run already. These stats aren't that important to possibly screw up the mich more important stuff on NG.

At 3/15/05 08:58 PM, FIGMENTUM wrote:

Continually question something Wade says, even if it's in a calm, rational and intelligent manner, you get fucking SHOT DOWN. Granted, your freedom to be an ass is your own, but I personally don't see it appropriate when a fan is simply expressing opinions and concerns. I understand D0GMA's tone/assumptions/whatever may have ticked you off, but when someone's trying to converse with you and understand your reasoning, ESPECIALLY in the way D0GMA did, a little patience goes a long way.

Dogma was expressing opinions and being rational? It sounded to me like he was stating things as facts that were complete BS and I'll rip anyone's ass who pulls shit like that.

I think part of the problem here is a conflict of interests.
Wade wants the site to stay up and stable, which I understand.
People want their stats, which I also understand.

But should one be sacrificed for the other? I think not.

After all, if a large number of users are running whatever scripts, there is the potential to cause harm to the site. What use are the stats then, if no-one can view them?

Conversely, I also understand the need for some to have lists and stats from the site, for whatever reason.
Perhaps, whilst Jim is working on list/stats stuff, maybe everyone can get organiused and one person gets the information, with Wade and Tom's blessing?

It's worth noting that I do have experience with large solutions, as I am a network admin supporting a multitude of enterprise solutions, including one of Europe's largest ISP's and one of Europe's largest holiday/vacation websites.

I'm suggesting that maybe people can lay off whatever scripts they have and let the NG team do theirthing and try to help you guys with what you want.

Thank you for listening.

At 3/15/05 09:11 PM, Love_Daddy wrote: Are these stats really worth it people. Ng has a lot to do and lots of scripts to run already. These stats aren't that important to possibly screw up the mich more important stuff on NG.

Well put. While we'd love to keep everyone happy, some of these stat people are being very selfish. I don't meant to offend them, but they need to realize we need to prioritize what we do. We have limited resources as far as coding the site, we only have James to do this stuff. Should 99.999% of our users have to wait and wait for cool new features they want and would enjoy because Liljim is forced into catering to the other %0.0001 of our users that want to know every fucking stupid stat? I say forced because they are going out on their own and getting this stats, which in some cases are putting uneeded load on our equipment.

They say these stats are important to them, but are they willing to compromise Newgrounds.com because they need their stats? If so, then they don't care about the stie and the other peopel who use it. They only care about themselves and their own wants and needs. If this is the case, fuck 'em. Maybe we should just remove their accounts so they have no stats to jerk off.

OR they could just wait until we're ready to give them the stats they want. Even if they have to wait a year. We've had a few things in the works for over a year now that keep getting put off because we have to attend to these problems.

Its all about priorities. Whats more important the portal and forums or whether you're ranked number 12 in B/P points?

At 3/15/05 09:28 PM, Love_Daddy wrote: Its all about priorities. Whats more important the portal and forums or whether you're ranked number 12 in B/P points?

Exactly. Liljim is working on stats, and I support his decision to bring you all these stats so you aren't tempted to go get them yourselves. We just ask for your patience. Last I saw they were well on their way to being ready, but we'll see what LilJim has to say when he returns.

It's the people that don't care about Newgrounds and just want to know some stupid stats, like "I HAVE TO KNOW IF I'M STILL RANKED 304 FOR B/P POINTS! I DON'T CARE IF IT SLOWS THE SITE DOWN FOR THE OTHER 500,000 VISITORS! ME ME ME!" These people are selfish and I will not tolerate them. If they want to fuck with the site for their own personal interests I will take them out if I have the chance.

It would mean a lot if you would tell me the topics I have made

At 3/15/05 09:57 PM, NemX2 wrote: It would mean a lot if you would tell me the topics I have made

We could probably have a "list topics by author" search. I'll run the idea by LilJim and see what he thinks. BTW, I may suggest things for Liljim to do, but I always leave it up to him if he thinks it's something we should do or if he has time to do it. I never order him to do anything.

At 3/15/05 09:37 PM, WadeFulp wrote: "I HAVE TO KNOW IF I'M STILL RANKED 304 FOR B/P POINTS! I DON'T CARE IF IT SLOWS THE SITE DOWN FOR THE OTHER 500,000 VISITORS! ME ME ME!"

A small comment on this, because i found it quite funny

I wonder where that person would have to go to find out if he/she is still ranked 304 for B/P points? hmmmm??????? public profile?

oh yes, thats it

At 3/15/05 10:09 PM, Toocool100 wrote: I wonder where that person would have to go to find out if he/she is still ranked 304 for B/P points? hmmmm??????? public profile?

oh yes, thats it

You mean we actually give our users a some what useless stat like that? What do you know!

At 3/15/05 09:23 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

Well put. While we'd love to keep everyone happy, some of these stat people are being very selfish. I don't meant to offend them, but they need to realize we need to prioritize what we do.

No one ever said it should be your first priority...

We have limited resources as far as coding the site, we only have James to do this stuff. Should 99.999% of our users have to wait and wait for cool new features they want and would enjoy because Liljim is forced into catering to the other %0.0001 of our users that want to know every fucking stupid stat?

Resorting to swearing over the stats is somewhat low, i always pictured you as somehwhat more mature. And saying 'fucking stupid stat' was contradictiory to you trying not to offend us... a subtle and lame attempt i might add. I am not trying to give you are hard time, but you make a lot of assumptions and seem to be looking at the subject from only your own perspective and not fro meach side, which i nfact - ironic as it is - makes you just as selfish as us. And like i said before, no one was setting your priorities fro you, we (or i even) was just saying that stats are something we find interesting and would like to see as soon as possible. And if the the stat pulling is not harming the site (whci h i have no idea if it is) than we should be able to keep it up until the LilJim in fact does find time to put up lists on the site itself.

I say forced because they are going out on their own and getting this stats, which in some cases are putting uneeded load on our equipment.

Really? Then why come into this thread flipping out instead of contacting those who are doing this, and coming up with facts that prove we are harming the system. I know that if the down time truly did have to do with pulling, then i would be the one of the first to stop, even if my contribution would be much smaller that others, because the well eing of the site as a whole is far more important thatn the stats to me. Plus, others have stopped already, so why are you still carrying on in such a way when one step has already been taking to improving this porblem.

They say these stats are important to them, but are they willing to compromise Newgrounds.com because they need their stats?

Hmm, another assumption. Read my other two paragraphs and other posts more carefully for a clearer view on such a remark.

If so, then they don't care about the stie and the other peopel who use it. They only care about themselves and their own wants and needs. If this is the case, fuck 'em.

Wow, and you aren't trying to insult us?

Maybe we should just remove their accounts so they have no stats to jerk off.

Now you are being petty and rediculous. If you do that, than be sure to know you'll lose even more respect than you might already have. You really take everything to the extreme and assume things that aren't true. Yes, we like out stats, but no one said it comes before the site. In fact, i said the opposite and i know my other fellow NG users feel the same.

OR they could just wait until we're ready to give them the stats they want. Even if they have to wait a year. We've had a few things in the works for over a year now that keep getting put off because we have to attend to these problems.

The fact that you cant compromise is sad in a way. There must be a way around it so all parties are happy. LilJim i am sure could find a solution as he has tried to discuss this topic i nthe past and without prosecution i might add.

At 3/15/05 10:16 PM, Myst_Williams wrote:

If so, then they don't care about the stie and the other peopel who use it. They only care about themselves and their own wants and needs. If this is the case, fuck 'em.

Wow, and you aren't trying to insult us?

So you're saying you don't care about the site? I thought you said you did care about the site? If this is the case I'm not insulting you. Maybe I'm insulting no one. Maybe I am being to extreme. If everyone who is stat happy would happily give up their stats for the benefit for NG then I have no problem with them. You're taking my statements out of context, making it look like I'm upset with people like yourself when I am not.

Maybe we should just remove their accounts so they have no stats to jerk off.

Now you are being petty and rediculous. If you do that, than be sure to know you'll lose even more respect than you might already have. You really take everything to the extreme and assume things that aren't true. Yes, we like out stats, but no one said it comes before the site. In fact, i said the opposite and i know my other fellow NG users feel the same.

Again, if you feel this way I don't have a problem with you and you don't fit the profile of the type of person I was describing. Hopefully no one fits the profile I was describing, that would be dandy!

The fact that you cant compromise is sad in a way. There must be a way around it so all parties are happy. LilJim i am sure could find a solution as he has tried to discuss this topic i nthe past and without prosecution i might add.

We are compromising! WTF! If we said "Stop gathering stats! We don't want you to know them" would not be compromising. I said LilJim is working on getting you all stats, but you might not get all the ones you want right away. If it takes us a year, it takes us a year. Maybe you guys need to compromise.

The fact is we shouldn't even be addressing this. We should just tell certain people who maybe causing problems to stop and wipe out anyone who doesn't comply. The fact that we are paying attention to this should be flattering. Newgrounds.com is a HUGE site and your group of stat gatherers makes up an insignificant percentage of our overal userbase, yet some of their actions can create problems for everyone. There is no way we can accomodate every little group of people who want something. We don't have the resources. The only reason we're bothering with this is because it could potentially hurt the site if we leave it alone.

At 3/15/05 10:42 PM, WadeFulp wrote: So you're saying you don't care about the site?

I was referring to the 'fuck 'em' part...

I thought you said you did care about the site?

I did.

If this is the case I'm not insulting you. Maybe I'm insulting no one.

I am not sure how that makes sense really, it seems your beating around something, but i dont really quite understand you.

Maybe I am being to extreme. If everyone who is stat happy would happily give up their stats for the benefit for NG then I have no problem with them. You're taking my statements out of context, making it look like I'm upset with people like yourself when I am not.

I never said you were upset, but the way you were swearing and complaining like we are the sole deceases of the site or something made it seem like your one sided opinion was simply a power trip or something. What i am trying to say is that you are being extreme, and i am glad you considered agreeing on that. No one came out and said that the stats were more important than NG, you assumed that and accused that, and if you didnt mean it even a lite, you wouldn;t have said. Its not that your mad, it is that your accusations are assumed and not fact and i was trying to point that out, because, in end, assuming something and then basing an accusation off that assumption truly is incorrect and a direct attack to someone who may valure both sides, or the opposite side of the opinion.

Again, if you feel this way I don't have a problem with you and you don't fit the profile of the type of person I was describing. Hopefully no one fits the profile I was describing, that would be dandy!

Well it would. And again, like i said once before, i respect you, but i just dont agree with everything you say and this just society has outspoken arrogant personalities like myself excersizing their rights. And i know i am probably more pain than reason right now, but simply some accusations you made were false or under wrong pretenses, and thought i may have seemed rude in my approach - as maybe you did also - i was only trying to point out that a one-sided view solves things for one side, and this site is loyal at most, and i know you want to make as many NG users as happy as possible, or you wouldnt be here at all, and irespect that too, but going at it the wrong way only pushes the buttons of people who dont appreciate it.

We are compromising! WTF! If we said "Stop gathering stats! We don't want you to know them" would not be compromising. I said LilJim is working on getting you all stats, but you might not get all the ones you want right away. If it takes us a year, it takes us a year. Maybe you guys need to compromise.

A year is not compromising. I am not sure how your parents made you and tom compromise as kids (: P), but it is an even playing field i am sure. And compromising would be letting a few lists continue that maybe we value most, or lists being cut down until LilJim can find time to get those stats up.

The fact is we shouldn't even be addressing this.

Well we should, because value is about the customer; this is not a business relationship, thus dictatorship is a wing of strong-arm not a wing of reason.

We should just tell certain people who maybe causing problems to stop and wipe out anyone who doesn't comply.

Such things like that show that you are one-minded and not open to the arguments at hand. Maybe i missed the overall argument, but it seems that the long posts by Dogma (which i only half read) led to an argument that you could not find logic in? Or simply do not want to agree with, which contradicts my last statement.

The fact that we are paying attention to this should be flattering.

Flattering, well, it should be your job. To look after your customer, which us, as Ng users, are. And whether you value that or not, simply shows the worth of the site. And i know for a fact that nay problem i have had i nthe past was dealt with efficiently and fairly, so know that you guys value your fans and grequent users.

Newgrounds.com is a HUGE site and your group of stat gatherers makes up an insignificant percentage of our overal userbase, yet some of their actions can create problems for everyone.

Well maybe so. Prove it and i will agree. I can see your logic, i assure, but i have no way of knowing if this is true. And thinking of us as insignificant is a poor appraoch by someone ahead of this site (or any site).

There is no way we can accomodate every little group of people who want something. We don't have the resources. The only reason we're bothering with this is because it could potentially hurt the site if we leave it alone.

Key word: potentially (which backfires some of your other claims), but i understand where you are coming from. If you asked me to stop i would, i said that before. What caused me to reply in any case is your accusations, but i feel we are past that now - i hope. Just try and be open-minded and not look at it as the slight factor we are, but the large factor we can be and how each user is valued equally.

At 3/15/05 11:09 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: Flattering, well, it should be your job to look after your customer, which us, as NG users, are. And whether you value that or not, simply shows the worth of the site. And i know for a fact that any problem i have had in the past was dealt with efficiently and fairly, so i know that you guys value your fans and frequent users.

Alot of typos specifically in that paragraph (that i just fixed if you were confused before), though everwhere else as well. I am tired, and going to bed as of now. ^_^

You know what makes me laugh D0GMA? The fact that Wade bothered to answer most of your rants. Ever wonder how many e-mails he gets bombarded with every day? After reading through this thread what really pisses me off is not not only the audacity of your statements but the fact that you're wrong. Period. If you want to play with bandwidth then start your own site. Excuse me but I have deposits to make.

At 3/15/05 10:08 PM, WadeFulp wrote: We could probably have a "list topics by author" search. I'll run the idea by LilJim and see what he thinks.

It's been mentioned in the thread that has suggestions for Newgrounds, so I'm sure he's heard it already.

And I just want to mention that although I usually can and do enjoy sifting through threads like this, everyone deciding to randomly pull a gfoxcook and max out the character limit on every single reply is making it quite difficult.

I'm wondering where pieoncar is during all of this.

I guess the problem here is between the old users and the new. Since all the old users and the people who enjoy the stats are generally regarded as the ones with power on this site (given more voting power, given more "respect" based on ranks and such, allowed to vote on movies that win $250 each month, etc.) they also feel like they should have more say then the general user of Newgrounds who only visits like 2 times a month or whatever.

It's pretty much the difference between the mostly indifferent majority and the passionately interested minority. I fit somewhere in between. It's cool to me to have these stats, but I wouldn't fight tremendously if they were all wiped out completely. I do care about this site, and it's statistical contents, but it isn't that important in my life.

Now, at the risk of doing what I just accused everyone else of doing, I also understand that liljim is invested in these sorts of stats just as Wade explained. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to hear that he works on them in his free time.

Everyone cares for this site and it's many aspects in different ways, they just have to learn to accept that somebody else is going to love one aspect more than another, and as such each one should be equally promoted proportionately to user's interest in it.

I'm not upset about losing stat lists because it means an official one is appearing soon. That's pretty damn cool. I also wouldn't be upset if stats didn't come yet, because that means something else that is cool and interesting will be along soon as well.

Either way, this post is too long.

(sigh) Well, it seems my long-ass post was ignored by just about everyone. I'm not sure why Wade didn't reply to even a small bit, as I think I brought up some good points, but then again, I directed it mostly to liljim and in reply to liljim as well. It was meant to be a catch-all, though. This time, I'm writing out THREE medium-long-ass posts instead, so... we'll see how that works. EDN.

Perhaps I stand as an example of someone who is both a stat-loving, NG-performance-degrading hippie in Wade's eyes... yet obviously someone who has worked fucking hard for this site over a long period of time and has nothing but the INTERESTS of this site continuing to provide entertainment to all who enjoy it (including those who love stats). That combination of facts must be a contradiction in terms... an oxymoron... to some people.

At 3/15/05 08:54 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Well, I'll say this. It sounds like what you're doing probably isn't a big deal. However, I have concern about what ShittyKitty is doing and the guy who started this topic. I would say if you are running a script on a large scale like that, stop. Stop until LilJim has a chance to address this and let us know what is okay and what isn't. I know he's working on stats for you guys. I don't know exactly which stats's he's going to make available. He led me to believe that once he has the ground work set up he can easily add whatever stats are needed. He just needs to build the system to display them and what not first. Again, this is something he already decided to take on. Maybe your scripts aren't that big of a deal, but I think he'd feel better if he gathered the data for you guys, rather than you guys try and get it yourself.

SK is the only one running his program on a large scale. He's also the only one running it automatically (even while he's away from the computer, for example). He's the only one of us who can program, basically.

This reminds me of something else, though... from January of 2004. Jesus Cyborg had similarly impressive programming skills to SK... but HIS program was a NG autovoter program to "help" with the templist thing to get the 100 votes up to 200 votes for UJ... while people like myself, Joe, and many others, had been doing that work MANUALLY for months.

liljim got over him very quickly and even had a conversation with him and thought he was useful. Some of us never came around to that same POV, but needless to say... SK is a valued member of the community, no question. And he doesn't make his program available to anyone like JC did. He restricts it.

Liljim works his ass off to make the site perform as well as it possibly can. He has a lot of pride in what he does and I love that quality about him. I know when things aren't running well he isn't happy. So when I see people running crap that maybe resulting in our database server taking a performance hit I know he's not going to like that, even if he doesn't come out and say it to all of you. I will say something about it because I don't want our resources being misused, even if the people doing it didn't mean any harm, they need to know we don't approve of it.

All he had to do was ask us to stop in January. Stop immediately. And we would have. As I said on page 3. But he didn't ask. I doubt liljim is too hesistant to ask because he doesn't want to hurt feelings. In fact, in the past, he HAS asked for people to immediately stop doing things (like Denvish's portal-refresher or whatever).

It's a shame Liljim has to waste time making all these stat lists for you guys when he has bigger and better things to work on that you will all appreciate more than some stupid stats. However, I don't think Liljim would be making up these stat pages if he didn't have a concern about what you guys are doing. So you can take that however you want. Those are the facts. You don't have to listen to me go off, make your own conclusions about the situation.

I'd work every day for $0 to get the stat pages going, but A) I'm not an admin. B) I don't have liljim's php, MySQL, etc. etc. knowledge. At all.

Perhaps you should talk to ShittyKitty about him doing some voluntary admin work for NG in regards to these stat pages liljim is struggling to balance with more important NG work. He could just send the files to liljim and liljim could upload them if they check out or something.

At 3/15/05 09:23 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Well put. While we'd love to keep everyone happy, some of these stat people are being very selfish. I don't meant to offend them, but they need to realize we need to prioritize what we do. We have limited resources as far as coding the site, we only have James to do this stuff. Should 99.999% of our users have to wait and wait for cool new features they want and would enjoy because Liljim is forced into catering to the other %0.0001 of our users that want to know every fucking stupid stat?

Like I said, "only having James" to do it... is your own choice. If I had the skills, I would volunteer myself to help him out. I'm sure there are others. Yes, Wade, that's how deep our SICK love of statistics drives us. We'd do shit for no pay to help NG and help other stat-loving freaks. That wonderful 0.0001% of your userbase (and come on.... How many users deposit exp at least once a month? I strongly suspect it's higher than 0.0001%... but then again, perhaps you're talking about overall visitors to the site, including people who never sign up for a NG account, depsite the best efforts of everyone who asks people to sign up for free in front page posts, such as Tom and yourself).

Also, having a high exp was recently used by Tom to qualify most of the people who voted in the "February Top 5 Flashes" awards poll. If stats don't matter, then why the hell was that one of the means used to determine who was a good judge of flash? Oh wait, because stats DO indicate how much someone has used the site. Stats DO indicate how much someone LOVES Newgrounds. Sites DO indicate how much people love flash games and flash movies. At least in part. So please stop calling them "fucking stupid stats."

They say these stats are important to them, but are they willing to compromise Newgrounds.com because they need their stats? If so, then they don't care about the stie and the other peopel who use it. They only care about themselves and their own wants and needs. If this is the case, fuck 'em. Maybe we should just remove their accounts so they have no stats to jerk off.

Willing to compromise NG? Of course not.

Some people only love flash here. They don't even bother to vote. I was one of those people, from 1999-2002. I ended up signing up for a NG account, but I never bothered to get too deeply into the site. I came by maybe once a month to play McFretN games or Assassin or things like that. I deposited grounds gold every now and then, but not very often... and that was the extent to it. I never knew what a blam was during the old system.

It wasn't until late 2002/early 2003 that I introduced myself by accident (for the most part) to the review system, the BBS, and the blam/protect system.

And what did these stat-based systems do? Well, they got me more interested in coming to NG EVERY DAY. If I hadn't had stats to pull me in completely, I never would have SEEN the amount of flash I have experienced. And I certainly never would have become a mod on this site or anything else. I would have stayed a casual fan of NG who didn't make a point of coming by that often. Yet it's a "SHAME" that liljim spends any time at all making anything to do with stats here on NG? Who made the stat pages to begin with, anyway? Who had the idea for a top 50 exp list, or a top 50 b/p list, or a top 50 popularity list (now the stickerlist has replaced it, of course)?

But then again... if it weren't for NG stats... I would have used a lot less of my own free time here... and a lot less of NG's bandwidth. So perhaps we all should have preferred that eventuality?

OR they could just wait until we're ready to give them the stats they want. Even if they have to wait a year. We've had a few things in the works for over a year now that keep getting put off because we have to attend to these problems.

We're fine with waiting, Wade! No one ever said we were all a bunch of inconsiderate, impatient jackasses. You seemed to just assume that.

At 3/15/05 09:37 PM, WadeFulp wrote: It's the people that don't care about Newgrounds and just want to know some stupid stats, like "I HAVE TO KNOW IF I'M STILL RANKED 304 FOR B/P POINTS! I DON'T CARE IF IT SLOWS THE SITE DOWN FOR THE OTHER 500,000 VISITORS! ME ME ME!" These people are selfish and I will not tolerate them. If they want to fuck with the site for their own personal interests I will take them out if I have the chance.

Most of those people are newbies who don't know it slows down the site, actually. But if there is someone who's out there and actually DOES think that way? Well, I feel pity for them. Take them out if you wish, but that's not necessarily the best answer, either. EDUCATING them, is. And at least you've certainly educated some of us by not remaining silent and coming into this thread and actually SAYING things, so thank you for that.

At 3/15/05 10:42 PM, WadeFulp wrote: We are compromising! WTF! If we said "Stop gathering stats! We don't want you to know them" would not be compromising. I said LilJim is working on getting you all stats, but you might not get all the ones you want right away. If it takes us a year, it takes us a year. Maybe you guys need to compromise.

We ARE perfectly willing to compromise. A huge chunk of my single post on page 3 was exactly ABOUT us compromising, and the various ways we WOULD have compromised two months ago.

I said that if liljim had asked us or told us to stop using the programs back in January, we WOULD have.

We could have found other, less-database-intensive ways to make our lists, we could have shortened our lists, or we could have stopped them altogether.

...

Anyway, I still haven't heard from liljim his verdict on this whole matter. Until that time, I will be cancelling both my Top 500 Voting Power list and my pentalist in their current forms. That'll be MY personal compromise on this matter.

I don't think either of my lists is that harmful, as I update one every saturday and the other one every OTHER saturday, but I do pull 1000+ profiles for the first one (the weekly one)... and around 400 profiles for the other one (the twice-a-month one). That second one is certainly less intensive, though. Perhaps I'll just have to do some shit manually. But it's a pain in the ass. We'll see. liljim, I look forward to... and am still waiting for... that light I hoped you would shed on these matters... back on page 3.