That's completely fucked.
At 5/30/25 12:35 PM, YendorTOO wrote:At 5/30/25 11:33 AM, BoiledMilkz wrote:I say we switch to animating with pen and paper, they can't put subscription services on writing utensils and pieces of parchment.
I put a subscription on your camera. Muhahahaha!
I'm pretty sure HP (Hewlett Packard) actually managed to turn printing stuff from their printers and replacing printer ink into some sort of subscription, it's not outside the realm of possibility.
At 5/30/25 08:13 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:May I recommend Krita?
Funny thing is that I used krita for years but never once tried the animation options. I might give it a go if toonboom's not working with me
At 5/30/25 08:57 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:I'll tell you the truth. I paid for a yearly subscription for Harmony Advanced and I personally don't mind it. Though I feel like I'm going to get a lot of attacks for this. Apologies in advance, everyone.
I think you missed the point. It's not about the fact that they offer a subscription model. It's the fact that they leave no other licensing option. And A LOT of people (including me) are against software subscription. Before the update, Toon Boom would in fact offer a one time purchase. But now, these people are screwed.
At 5/30/25 12:39 PM, Chdonga wrote:At 5/30/25 12:12 AM, DioShiba wrote:There is nothing morally wrong with piracy
We need to return to treating piracy like fight club though.
That is, stop fucking talking about it.
I one hundred percent agree with you, but there is a bit of a paradox going on: the more people know about piracy, the more we fight back against the big corpos screwing us over so i dunno, this is just my two cents on this
At 5/31/25 03:32 AM, Czyszy wrote:At 5/30/25 08:57 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:I'll tell you the truth. I paid for a yearly subscription for Harmony Advanced and I personally don't mind it. Though I feel like I'm going to get a lot of attacks for this. Apologies in advance, everyone.
I think you missed the point. It's not about the fact that they offer a subscription model. It's the fact that they leave no other licensing option. And A LOT of people (including me) are against software subscription. Before the update, Toon Boom would in fact offer a one time purchase. But now, these people are screwed.
I am aware of them not offering perpetual licenses, and it’s very hard for me to process how the team decided in removing this option.
At 5/29/25 03:44 PM, xeiavica wrote:A few days ago, there was a sudden change with purchasing toon boom. You previously could buy a perpetual license for one single release and then pay to upgrade, but now subscription only (Though I've heard you can email sales team to get a perpetual license). Their reasoning was that it was too difficult to explain to users perpetual licensing, so they removed it. You guys going to stay with TB or move on? I'm against mandatory subscriptions for offline software, so I wouldn't use this even if I had unlimited funds to do whatever.
This may or may not have to do with a US company buying toonb boom and changing business model.
"too difficult to explain to users perpetual licensing". sorry but am calling bullshit on that explanation, how difficult is "just buy the product" to explain? it is how buying.. well everything in the world works and how every software worked back in the day.
looking at TPGinc(the private equity firm who bought it)'s website their portofolio has mcafee and some other stuff with subscription based models, this new model isn't off brand for them.
At 5/31/25 12:31 AM, VictorVonVice wrote:At 5/30/25 08:13 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:May I recommend Krita?
Funny thing is that I used krita for years but never once tried the animation options. I might give it a go if toonboom's not working with me
can vouch for krita as an animation tool. aside from the timeline being a little clunky with things like zooming, it is pretty solid.
Response to Toon Boom removed perpetual licensing option 2025-05-31 19:08:05 (edited 2025-05-31 19:18:27)
Ahaha, this sucks, man. I'm probably going to be stuck with Flash 8 and Krita forever if all commercial creative software keeps going down this route.
It comes down to your choice and really depends on what you want to do. I hate subscriptions cuz damn bitch you don't need the money but some programs are worth it if you use it (Or they are just adobe). If you wanna move on and use a different program one I been using is OpenToonz, I honestly like it more then TB
https://opentoonz.github.io/e/
Newgrounds also has a list of different programs you can use for animation (both paid and free) https://www.newgrounds.com/wiki/creator-resources/animation-resources
Didn't hear it from me but you could also sail the high seas for Toonboom products too.
Fuck
At 5/31/25 07:53 AM, YuukanVulture wrote:At 5/31/25 03:32 AM, Czyszy wrote:At 5/30/25 08:57 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:I'll tell you the truth. I paid for a yearly subscription for Harmony Advanced and I personally don't mind it. Though I feel like I'm going to get a lot of attacks for this. Apologies in advance, everyone.
I think you missed the point. It's not about the fact that they offer a subscription model. It's the fact that they leave no other licensing option. And A LOT of people (including me) are against software subscription. Before the update, Toon Boom would in fact offer a one time purchase. But now, these people are screwed.
I am aware of them not offering perpetual licenses, and it’s very hard for me to process how the team decided in removing this option.
I think the point is that a lot subscription pricing is fine so long as you can justify the cost every month--particularly if you're an employee for a large studio and the studio is paying the cost, not the individual employee. If you're a hobbyist or a student who makes zero dollars off of your animation work, just doing it for fun, then it's a waste of money to constantly pay for software. At most you only want to pay once for software and never again unless the software gets a big enough upgrade to genuinely excite you enough to save up for a new one (how it used to be before the subscription model was the norm), or ideally a FOSS software that punches above its weight and gives you everything you need and more for both personal animation and the occasional client work, like Blender or Krita.
It's like how I don't mind using Microsoft Office 365 apps like Word and Powerpoint at work, where my employer is paying the software cost and ensuring the computers are up-to-date enough for Microsoft's increasingly-bloated software to still run smooth as silk--but at home on my personal computer, LibreOffice is all I really need to periodically make a monthly budget spreadsheet, update my resumes and cover letters, or type up a letter a couple times throughout the year. Why on Earth would I pay monthly for software I don't even need most months in a year, and when I do use it, it's for non-commercial personal use cases like trying to figure out my monthly budget for bills?
Likewise, as much as I would like to work in creative software like Blender and Krita much more often, my day job has nothing to do with my hobbyist animation ambitions and I don't make any money just making little Movie Portal/YouTube animations for the fun of it, outside of occasional client work, thus I don't even get to spend quality time with this software outside of my free days on the weekend, similar to other fun, relaxing hobbies that don't make me money and don't make me a good contributor to the capitalistic machine in the moment, like playing video games, spending time with my dog or exercising my body. All that fun and arguably more-fulfilling stuff has to wait until my days off.
A monthly subscription for, say, Maya and/or 3DS Max is way too much money to spend for hobbyists who only get to even look at their 3D software 1 or 2 days per week, but for professionals who work in this software 5-7 days per week and make enough money to cover the monthly cost and then some, it's a sound investment.
It is also bizarre that software like Toon Boom and Adobe products are constantly hiking prices and removing more affordable options for indies and hobbyists, while also heavily pushing for AI technology that potentially makes the human user behind the software redundant and is already permanently eliminating entry-level jobs that make it possible to potentially make a consistent living making digital art in the first place. Like, how does Toon Boom in this case expect us to justify the monthly cost of their software, even want to use it over FOSS alternatives for our silly unpaid Newgrounds personal projects, while also working on Ember AI in hopes that it eliminates the need for large-scale studio production in general, let alone human employees in said studios? It just makes no long-term business sense to me to constantly charge more and more for software while (attempting to, at least) take away the very career paths that allow people to easily justify said software costs. Of course, publicly-traded companies or victims of corporate consolidation aren't exactly known for prioritizing the long-term health of the business over short-term gains.
At 5/31/25 10:40 PM, jthrash wrote:At 5/31/25 07:53 AM, YuukanVulture wrote:At 5/31/25 03:32 AM, Czyszy wrote:At 5/30/25 08:57 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:I'll tell you the truth. I paid for a yearly subscription for Harmony Advanced and I personally don't mind it. Though I feel like I'm going to get a lot of attacks for this. Apologies in advance, everyone.
I think you missed the point. It's not about the fact that they offer a subscription model. It's the fact that they leave no other licensing option. And A LOT of people (including me) are against software subscription. Before the update, Toon Boom would in fact offer a one time purchase. But now, these people are screwed.
I am aware of them not offering perpetual licenses, and it’s very hard for me to process how the team decided in removing this option.
I think the point is that a lot subscription pricing is fine so long as you can justify the cost every month--particularly if you're an employee for a large studio and the studio is paying the cost, not the individual employee. If you're a hobbyist or a student who makes zero dollars off of your animation work, just doing it for fun, then it's a waste of money to constantly pay for software. At most you only want to pay once for software and never again unless the software gets a big enough upgrade to genuinely excite you enough to save up for a new one (how it used to be before the subscription model was the norm), or ideally a FOSS software that punches above its weight and gives you everything you need and more for both personal animation and the occasional client work, like Blender or Krita.
It's like how I don't mind using Microsoft Office 365 apps like Word and Powerpoint at work, where my employer is paying the software cost and ensuring the computers are up-to-date enough for Microsoft's increasingly-bloated software to still run smooth as silk--but at home on my personal computer, LibreOffice is all I really need to periodically make a monthly budget spreadsheet, update my resumes and cover letters, or type up a letter a couple times throughout the year. Why on Earth would I pay monthly for software I don't even need most months in a year, and when I do use it, it's for non-commercial personal use cases like trying to figure out my monthly budget for bills?
Likewise, as much as I would like to work in creative software like Blender and Krita much more often, my day job has nothing to do with my hobbyist animation ambitions and I don't make any money just making little Movie Portal/YouTube animations for the fun of it, outside of occasional client work, thus I don't even get to spend quality time with this software outside of my free days on the weekend, similar to other fun, relaxing hobbies that don't make me money and don't make me a good contributor to the capitalistic machine in the moment, like playing video games, spending time with my dog or exercising my body. All that fun and arguably more-fulfilling stuff has to wait until my days off.
A monthly subscription for, say, Maya and/or 3DS Max is way too much money to spend for hobbyists who only get to even look at their 3D software 1 or 2 days per week, but for professionals who work in this software 5-7 days per week and make enough money to cover the monthly cost and then some, it's a sound investment.
It is also bizarre that software like Toon Boom and Adobe products are constantly hiking prices and removing more affordable options for indies and hobbyists, while also heavily pushing for AI technology that potentially makes the human user behind the software redundant and is already permanently eliminating entry-level jobs that make it possible to potentially make a consistent living making digital art in the first place. Like, how does Toon Boom in this case expect us to justify the monthly cost of their software, even want to use it over FOSS alternatives for our silly unpaid Newgrounds personal projects, while also working on Ember AI in hopes that it eliminates the need for large-scale studio production in general, let alone human employees in said studios? It just makes no long-term business sense to me to constantly charge more and more for software while (attempting to, at least) take away the very career paths that allow people to easily justify said software costs. Of course, publicly-traded companies or victims of corporate consolidation aren't exactly known for prioritizing the long-term health of the business over short-term gains.
Yes! Incredibly good points. Yours is possibly the most bulletproof take on why what ToonBoom and Adobe are doing is 100% bullshit.
At 5/31/25 11:22 PM, Czyszy wrote:At 5/31/25 10:40 PM, jthrash wrote:At 5/31/25 07:53 AM, YuukanVulture wrote:At 5/31/25 03:32 AM, Czyszy wrote:At 5/30/25 08:57 PM, YuukanVulture wrote:I'll tell you the truth. I paid for a yearly subscription for Harmony Advanced and I personally don't mind it. Though I feel like I'm going to get a lot of attacks for this. Apologies in advance, everyone.
I think you missed the point. It's not about the fact that they offer a subscription model. It's the fact that they leave no other licensing option. And A LOT of people (including me) are against software subscription. Before the update, Toon Boom would in fact offer a one time purchase. But now, these people are screwed.
I am aware of them not offering perpetual licenses, and it’s very hard for me to process how the team decided in removing this option.
I think the point is that a lot subscription pricing is fine so long as you can justify the cost every month--particularly if you're an employee for a large studio and the studio is paying the cost, not the individual employee. If you're a hobbyist or a student who makes zero dollars off of your animation work, just doing it for fun, then it's a waste of money to constantly pay for software. At most you only want to pay once for software and never again unless the software gets a big enough upgrade to genuinely excite you enough to save up for a new one (how it used to be before the subscription model was the norm), or ideally a FOSS software that punches above its weight and gives you everything you need and more for both personal animation and the occasional client work, like Blender or Krita.
It's like how I don't mind using Microsoft Office 365 apps like Word and Powerpoint at work, where my employer is paying the software cost and ensuring the computers are up-to-date enough for Microsoft's increasingly-bloated software to still run smooth as silk--but at home on my personal computer, LibreOffice is all I really need to periodically make a monthly budget spreadsheet, update my resumes and cover letters, or type up a letter a couple times throughout the year. Why on Earth would I pay monthly for software I don't even need most months in a year, and when I do use it, it's for non-commercial personal use cases like trying to figure out my monthly budget for bills?
Likewise, as much as I would like to work in creative software like Blender and Krita much more often, my day job has nothing to do with my hobbyist animation ambitions and I don't make any money just making little Movie Portal/YouTube animations for the fun of it, outside of occasional client work, thus I don't even get to spend quality time with this software outside of my free days on the weekend, similar to other fun, relaxing hobbies that don't make me money and don't make me a good contributor to the capitalistic machine in the moment, like playing video games, spending time with my dog or exercising my body. All that fun and arguably more-fulfilling stuff has to wait until my days off.
A monthly subscription for, say, Maya and/or 3DS Max is way too much money to spend for hobbyists who only get to even look at their 3D software 1 or 2 days per week, but for professionals who work in this software 5-7 days per week and make enough money to cover the monthly cost and then some, it's a sound investment.
It is also bizarre that software like Toon Boom and Adobe products are constantly hiking prices and removing more affordable options for indies and hobbyists, while also heavily pushing for AI technology that potentially makes the human user behind the software redundant and is already permanently eliminating entry-level jobs that make it possible to potentially make a consistent living making digital art in the first place. Like, how does Toon Boom in this case expect us to justify the monthly cost of their software, even want to use it over FOSS alternatives for our silly unpaid Newgrounds personal projects, while also working on Ember AI in hopes that it eliminates the need for large-scale studio production in general, let alone human employees in said studios? It just makes no long-term business sense to me to constantly charge more and more for software while (attempting to, at least) take away the very career paths that allow people to easily justify said software costs. Of course, publicly-traded companies or victims of corporate consolidation aren't exactly known for prioritizing the long-term health of the business over short-term gains.
Yes! Incredibly good points. Yours is possibly the most bulletproof take on why what ToonBoom and Adobe are doing is 100% bullshit.
I've learned to hate AI as much as the next guy (emphasis on "learned," I'm not doing it to be cool with the NG crowd, this is just my actual experience with AI in the workplace so far), but in a certain way, this dogmatic push for AI in commercial art is actually a bit more of an existential threat for the 20th century studio model. If every Tom, Dick and Larry could just make a prompt of their dream movie or game in a couple minutes, then what's the point of waiting for the next big Disney movie or next big Activision game to come out? Big companies like that only exist because, as it currently stands, it is basically impossible to make big-budget movies, shows and games without a massive number of highly-trained human employees. Indie animation has made big strides to narrow the gulf in visual quality a bit, but still most if not all indie productions are the result of software, time and people-power limitations (and the extra creativity such limitations actually encourage), and if for some reason you wanted to make a VFX slopfest where every character looks like they are suffering from the worst effects of skin cancer just to show off that your studio's render farm CAN render weird 32K wrinkly elephant skin textures on everything in a reasonable amount of time, then you still have to work for well-funded major studios like Lucasfilm.
It's not exactly in Hollywood's best interest to push for AI that makes it possible for literally anyone to make their ideal movie and no longer rely on Hollywood to make such movies for them, especially when the Western industry is already struggling intensely to get people to watch movies in theaters with overpriced snacks for anything other than the safest, blandest remakes and sequels. Likewise, Adobe, ToonBoom and other such digital art software providers should not make the "Surprised Pikachu face" when they struggle to sell software because professional digital artists no longer have jobs due to AI and can only afford to use FOSS alternatives for hobbyist work, while casuals don't need like 95% of what complex digital art software like Photoshop provides, especially if it takes time (usually years) to fully learn, unlike cushy AI art tools like Firefly AI or Ember AI.
At 5/29/25 03:44 PM, xeiavica wrote:A few days ago, there was a sudden change with purchasing toon boom. You previously could buy a perpetual license for one single release and then pay to upgrade, but now subscription only (Though I've heard you can email sales team to get a perpetual license). Their reasoning was that it was too difficult to explain to users perpetual licensing, so they removed it. You guys going to stay with TB or move on? I'm against mandatory subscriptions for offline software, so I wouldn't use this even if I had unlimited funds to do whatever.
This may or may not have to do with a US company buying toonb boom and changing business model.
Well damn. Guess we’ll have to use Moho or OpenToonz.
"If you can't find a reason to fight, then you shouldn't
be fighting.”
-Akame
At 5/30/25 03:44 PM, VictorVonVice wrote:At 5/29/25 11:29 PM, Artcompany wrote:Damn that sucks, I swear every good creative program is switching to subscription based payment models now. It's not like most artist are underpaid and are at risk of losing their jobs to AI or anything, clearly we have loads of money to spend!
On a related note, Opentoonz/Tahoma2D is basically a free version of Toon Boom so you can always switch to that. Plus they're both opensource so they can't switch to the sub model even if they wanted to.
See, I would be happy to give them a shot if not for the fact that I would take one look at the program's layout and just check out. It's really frustrating when my broke ass can't afford the actual programs used to make animations easily but your only affordable option is free source stuff that heavily rely on my dumb ass to program stuff too.
You should try Tahoma2D, it's basically Opentoonz but with a UI that doesn't suck. Plus it gets update way more than Opentoonz anyway and more features so your not missing out by switching.
At 5/30/25 09:11 AM, Simoes1000 wrote:Who needs toom boom harmony when you can crack adobe flash/animate
everyone gangsta until
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At 5/30/25 11:42 AM, xeiavica wrote:At 5/30/25 11:33 AM, BoiledMilkz wrote:I say we switch to animating with pen and paper, they can't put subscription services on writing utensils and pieces of parchment.Don't give them any ideas
Imagine trying to draw on paper then "PEN IS A PAPER PRO FEATURE" appears LMFAO
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Response to Toon Boom removed perpetual licensing option 2025-06-02 08:12:14 (edited 2025-06-02 08:12:27)
At 6/2/25 07:57 AM, EwanDoggieNG wrote:At 5/30/25 09:11 AM, Simoes1000 wrote:Who needs toom boom harmony when you can crack adobe flash/animate
everyone gangsta until
Fortunately, this does not apply to Flash version 8 and older. ;P
At 6/2/25 08:12 AM, Czyszy wrote:At 6/2/25 07:57 AM, EwanDoggieNG wrote:At 5/30/25 09:11 AM, Simoes1000 wrote:Who needs toom boom harmony when you can crack adobe flash/animate
everyone gangsta until
Fortunately, this does not apply to Flash version 8 and older. ;P
ah i see. got it on my photoshop once, but i easily fixed it
Petition to call pirating Photoshop "Photoshoplifting" lolololol
The PaRappa The Rapper Collab is open for submissions!
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At 6/2/25 08:12 AM, Czyszy wrote:At 6/2/25 07:57 AM, EwanDoggieNG wrote:At 5/30/25 09:11 AM, Simoes1000 wrote:Who needs toom boom harmony when you can crack adobe flash/animate
everyone gangsta until
Fortunately, this does not apply to Flash version 8 and older. ;P
I use flash cs6 with no problem so the CS version still working.
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At 5/30/25 11:33 AM, BoiledMilkz wrote:I say we switch to animating with pen and paper, they can't put subscription services on writing utensils and pieces of parchment.
Devolta aos anos 30?oh yeaaah
I know what Toon Boom did is very unethical, but I still find the software itself easy to use. If I can't work it out, I'm considering switching to Opentoonz in the future.
