I forgot to add Hellbastard to the list. Those guys are definitely worth seeing. They're awesome.

At 10/22/11 01:31 PM, Tobi wrote: HeavenDuff, thanks for the suggestions. I esspecially liked Barlog and Infernal Stronghold. Speaking of the latter, I'm really liking the hardcore/black metal thats been fusion going on lately. You guys should check out Wolvhammer. It has the agression of the latest blackened crust movement, in addition to the atmosphere of the depresssive and doom bands. Also HeavenDuff, I wasn't trying to insult Agalloch, just saying they require a little bit more of an attention span than most Deathfest goers seem to want. But like Ani said, this is a pretty varied year, so I can see how it's kinda fitting for them to play there.

I'm always happy to recommand bands I like to others :)

Balrog and Infernal Stronghold also are some of my personnal favorite bands from the Black Metal (and somewhat related to the bm) scene. Both are very agressive, raw and black to the core! I love their music. I'll make sure to listen to that Wolvhammer band you are recommanding. The description you've made of their sound is quite appealling to me.

And for that Agalloch part, it's alright. I really wasn't pissed for real. Just pretending ;)

At 10/22/11 01:39 PM, Tobi wrote: Am I the only one who prefers their non-black material to their black material?

I don't. But I'd say they are quite on par. Both are very enjoyable, unique and so influential. I actually can't believe how well Garm did on two completely different scenes. the guy really has an artist's soul.

At 10/22/11 06:38 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:

At 10/22/11 01:31 PM, Tobi wrote: saying they require a little bit more of an attention span

lol.

Yeah yeah, you don't like them, we know that.

At 10/22/11 03:12 PM, AniMetal wrote:

At 10/22/11 01:03 PM, Bahamut wrote: After returning from a short break, I want to quickly say "FUCK YES! Running Wild have returned!" This shall be my chance to see them live.

Running Wild has only toured the United States / Canada ONCE EVER, and that was in 1986. They didn't even play a single show here when they were announcing it quits a few years ago.

Here's hoping the reunion (can we even call it that) will have them touring in America once again. If Manowar finally made another tour in the UK (the first in 16 years), Running Wild can give something to America.

And they haven't produced any quality music in years either.

Last album I never heard but before that was The Brotherhood which actually had some good tunes.

At 10/23/11 01:58 AM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 10/22/11 06:38 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:

At 10/22/11 01:31 PM, Tobi wrote: saying they require a little bit more of an attention span

lol.

Yeah yeah, you don't like them, we know that.

Oh nono, I'm just saying that their music doesn't require an attention span. It's too simple. Attention spans are more for complex music.

At 10/22/11 07:31 PM, Dalnaki wrote: Black Witchery

I thought I saw you trolling their shoutbox on last.fm a while ago?

At 10/23/11 03:39 PM, batman64 wrote:


That all said, I am here to also say and point out a lot of simple tunes with simple structures and performances also should warrant attention as well. Not saying all, that would be foolish and inaccurate due to the simple fact a lot of simple tunes do not warrant said attention because they simply suck..case in point, most pop music prevalent in today's music market.( I know this is an opinionated statement but I feel it is warranted)

Well if we're going this route it can be said that ALL music, regardless of complexity requires attention, otherwise we wouldn't hear it.

I may also cite countless tunes by countless bands who also keep a simple structure yet get attention, warranted I may add, due to the bands actually saying something in a simple format.
Early blues, rock, and Metal were not the most technical stuff around yet they deserved and were granted attention simply because they were good tunes with something to say. And sometimes, even a simple tune can be somewhat complicated by the arrangement and performance.

I do believe you may be straying off topic, I'm not talking about whether or not to give the band any attention, rather that agalloch's music does not require a big amount of attention to fully get it. Like one of my favorite bands mirrorthrone, there are so many different layers to that music that you can't just give it a little attention and get all of it. There are still times when I listen to his music that I say " whoa I don't remember that being there " whereas agalloch, I can listen to once and hear everything.

In closing I would have to say that all music one considers should be paid attention closely to..for in the end the song's message is what counts.

Yes, but I'm not talking about the message. Although even then the message would be portrayed through voice,.

For I have to say..Yes, a very technical song does warrant attention...but if the song in fact has no viable message then sorry, that to me just states that yeah, look at us, we can technically wank on this track and have nothing to say but, yeah, we are technical and can play as such.
Personally , Have said it before, I much prefer to hear a simple song with something to say instead of a very complicated piece that says nothing but yeah, we are technical.

I agree, but to certain extents. It's not the fact that Agalloch's music is simple, it's that it's really repetitive and it's essentially the same formula for given albums. Musically speaking, there are times when you can tell a technical piece has no real though in it ( wank ) and there are times you can tell in a simple piece that they really just aren't even trying, or just suck.

I believe you grasp my words and understand what I meant to convey.

I get what you're saying, but as I said, I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not talking about the message, rather just the structure of the music.

And even then it's not really the band I hate, it's how any band gets overglorified. " oh this is just the most unique artist ever " " you just don't understand their genius " blah blah blah.

At 10/23/11 09:20 PM, batman64 wrote:

At 10/23/11 06:40 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:

At 10/23/11 03:39 PM, batman64 wrote:

Well if we're going this route it can be said that ALL music, regardless of complexity requires attention, otherwise we wouldn't hear it.

Essentially one should keep an open mind and ear when hearing any piece of music IMO for even in a very simple tune one can find a phrase, riff, what have you and like it a lot even if not crazy bout the rest and an artistic one can build from it something new. Case in point Metallica taking a riff from Roy Orbison and making something new with it.

I do believe you may be straying off topic, I'm not talking about whether or not to give the band any attention, rather that agalloch's music does not require a big amount of attention to fully get it. Like one of my favorite bands mirrorthrone, there are so many different layers to that music that you can't just give it a little attention and get all of it. There are still times when I listen to his music that I say " whoa I don't remember that being there " whereas agalloch, I can listen to once and hear everything.

Ok, I see better what you are saying here. But in my experience and opinion I would also say that people hear things differently and have other opinions as well.

Yes, mainly the reason I dislike agalloch's music is because of my own background in my guitar. I was playing agalloch music before I even listened to them. I still remember I played The Hawthorne Passage almost entirely through, and this was at aprrox. 3 months of playing. To me their music

Also there are things under some music as well like an instrument not put in the foreground and such as I learned from Duff recommending Alcest(Believe that was the band) Lot of distortion up front but when I found I listened for different instruments and things I found new layers of the apparently simple sounding song.

Not quite following you here.

And yes..people like what they like at face value as well. Myself, I listen to just about anything for I always find something I like or at least part of something. There are degrees of complexity. Just depends how complex you like it I guess.

Nothing wrong with that. It's just like I said about the overglorification of things. Liking something is fine, but trying to turn it into something it isn't is just lame.

Ok, i understand you are not talking about the message. But I have to disagree that the message would be portrayed by voice. I can cite countless examples of Music without words or vocals that have a very strong message through either their titles, arrangement, or performance of.

I could understand titles, but I wouldn't really agree with arrangement or performance. Unless you have specific examples. Some songs may evoke certain feelings or emotions, but specific messages seems a bit unlikely to me.

I agree, but to certain extents. It's not the fact that Agalloch's music is simple, it's that it's really repetitive and it's essentially the same formula for given albums. Musically speaking, there are times when you can tell a technical piece has no real though in it ( wank ) and there are times you can tell in a simple piece that they really just aren't even trying, or just suck.

I can take your words and apply it to a lot of bands I hear and have heard over the years. I mean I can go on about how a lot of music is repetitive in one way or the other either through how played or which style and genre they play in since they all basically follow the same formula one way or the other. Rarely will you find something truly new for everyone borrows from something and repeats it one way or other. Again it comes down to what one hears and likes in their opinion.

Well yes, influences are certainly taken, otherwise every death metal band besides the first would be unoriginal and such. The repetitveness I was talking about came from the single songs themselves, like playing the same riff for god knows how long. Of course you can still sound unique even with all those borrowed sounds.

And even then it's not really the band I hate, it's how any band gets overglorified. " oh this is just the most unique artist ever " " you just don't understand their genius " blah blah blah.

Basically I take it you just don't like the band and/or their music.

I do not enjoy their music, again because of my own musical background. To me, their songs just scream " we're going to purposely put no effort into our music and cover it with some atmospheric label "

I would have to say that most music and musicians follow particular structures and again their are degrees of complexity.

Of course.

I take it you do not care for the structures of their songs. Nothing wrong with that. But I would also have to point out just because you do not like the structure you may find something..even a small part, that You may like making the listening worthwhile.

I would say yes, but it's the repetitive thing that ruins it. They would be more enjoyable if they were more dynamic. I feel as if Agalloch's guitarist just doesn't know full scales or keys, so he just stays in one position the whole time. Or maybe he's doing it on purpose, either way it annoys me.

Again, open mind, open ears..

I think just listening to all of their stuff to begin with would qualify.

:and maybe try listening from a different perspective.

Not sure that's possible. Again I'll use my guitar as an example. Before I started playing I was always amazed at everyone's music, it seemed and sounded like the greatest thing ever. Like decapitated's Winds of Creation, I thought it was so technical, but then I actually started looking at the music and I realized it wasn't really technical at all. Same thing for every other band, it spoils most for me. Or at least when they're labeled a certain way, like if a band is labeled technical and they're not really technical.

And I must agree with your last words..overglorification to me kills the music and artist eventually..especially if they believe their own hype. Glorification is good in doses..just don't overdue it.

I find it to happen mostly with Black metal or death metal. Black metal bands pick a shitty sound and just play the same 3 chords over and over and some kids will try and convince me it's atmospheric or beautiful or something like that and of course death metal bands will just chug the same power chords and kids will call it br00tal.

At 10/23/11 04:41 PM, AllMightyBruce wrote:

At 10/22/11 07:31 PM, Dalnaki wrote: Black Witchery

I thought I saw you trolling their shoutbox on last.fm a while ago?

Never trolled their shoutbox. You're probably thinking of a different band.

At 10/23/11 10:12 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: I find it to happen mostly with Black metal or death metal. Black metal bands pick a shitty sound and just play the same 3 chords over and over and some kids will try and convince me it's atmospheric or beautiful or something like that and of course death metal bands will just chug the same power chords and kids will call it br00tal.

Your understanding of both of these metal genres is absolutely phenomenal.

Do you know this track? I'ts called Ahrimanic Trance and it's performed by the American Atmospheric Black Metal band Wolves In The Throne Room. Your definition of the genre suits them perfectly.

No, in fact it doesn't... I think you don't like Atmospheric Black Metal. You seem to fail to get the feel of the music this kind of band plays. They play repetitive riffs, but it has a purpose. Like in ambient music, a slow progression is important to create the correct feeling. Bands like Wolves In The Throne Room will have something like 4 or 5 "main riffs" in a track. But that's the point. It's not because they lack the creativity, it's because that's exactly what they are aiming at. Yes the riff might be repetitive, but there is more than just a riff in a section of the track. The vocals, the drumming, the keys, they all work on creating an ambience. If you don't get this, then maybe the genre isn't for you. So why not quit this useless bashing?

Not metal but just got back from The Misfits Concert. Pretty awesome night. Got the new CD Devil's Rain signed by Jerry Only.

Immortal are this week's feature!

At 10/24/11 02:21 AM, greensucksbluerules wrote: It was Abigail Williams.

lol Last.fm shoutboxes. That's quite possibly the worst feature they ever implemented on the site. Nothing but pure idiocy was spawned from it. The community actually finds themselves to be dumber than YouTube.

At 10/24/11 12:28 AM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 10/23/11 10:12 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: I find it to happen mostly with Black metal or death metal. Black metal bands pick a shitty sound and just play the same 3 chords over and over and some kids will try and convince me it's atmospheric or beautiful or something like that and of course death metal bands will just chug the same power chords and kids will call it br00tal.

Your understanding of both of these metal genres is absolutely phenomenal.

Yeah, because I said ALL bands are like that. No, just some.

Do you know this track? I'ts called Ahrimanic Trance and it's performed by the American Atmospheric Black Metal band Wolves In The Throne Room. Your definition of the genre suits them perfectly.

Darkthrone also made a track like this, transylvanian hunger. It's shit.

No, in fact it doesn't... I think you don't like Atmospheric Black Metal.

Oh no, I do. Just the bads that know what atmosphere really is.

You seem to fail to get the feel of the music this kind of band plays. They play repetitive riffs, but it has a purpose. Like in ambient music, a slow progression is important to create the correct feeling. Bands like Wolves In The Throne Room will have something like 4 or 5 "main riffs" in a track. But that's the point. It's not because they lack the creativity, it's because that's exactly what they are aiming at. Yes the riff might be repetitive, but there is more than just a riff in a section of the track. The vocals, the drumming, the keys, they all work on creating an ambience. If you don't get this, then maybe the genre isn't for you. So why not quit this useless bashing?

My god, atmosphere is not made by being slow or repetitive, its made by being a good musician and knowing how to utilize certain keys to get certain sounds. Why can't you get this through your head. Repetitiveness =/= atmosphere. Nothing in these tracks are atmospheric.

At 10/24/11 04:33 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Yeah, because I said ALL bands are like that. No, just some.

Yeah well, that's not what you said. Go back and read your post.

Darkthrone also made a track like this, transylvanian hunger. It's shit.

I'll give it a listen. But the WITTR track is an Atmospheric BM masterpiece. I love the atmosphere, and you can't just say there isn't. Even if the riff is repetitive, it's a long riff repeated over a long period of time, not just some shit built on a bar (can't seem to translate this properly. The word is mesure is french).

Oh no, I do. Just the bads that know what atmosphere really is.

Name a few please.

And please understand that you have your own criteria. I happen to enjoy this slow-progression in my atmospheric bm. Are you implying that something that is repetitive cannot be good by any means? Cause that would be dumb. Some genres have very specific objectives. So what you consider bad song-writting, might be exactly what the artist was looking for.

My god, atmosphere is not made by being slow or repetitive, its made by being a good musician and knowing how to utilize certain keys to get certain sounds. Why can't you get this through your head. Repetitiveness =/= atmosphere. Nothing in these tracks are atmospheric.

Yes, and Wolves In The Throne Room do exactly that. They are great musicians and to know how to utilize certains keys to get a certain sound. When you play very slow and minimal amount of chords in your riffs, you have to pick these chords well. Same apply for genres like Doom Metal and Drone. You can accuse them of putting very little effort in their music, or understand the point of the music.

At 10/24/11 05:05 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 10/24/11 04:33 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Yeah, because I said ALL bands are like that. No, just some.

Yeah well, that's not what you said. Go back and read your post.

I see how that may have been misconstrued, should have been more clear.

Darkthrone also made a track like this, transylvanian hunger. It's shit.

I'll give it a listen. But the WITTR track is an Atmospheric BM masterpiece. I love the atmosphere, and you can't just say there isn't.

I believe I can, i'll use bach's fugue in D minor. I've listened to it so many times, it's just not atmospheric anymore. Listening to the same thing forever and ever ruins the atmosphere.

Even if the riff is repetitive, it's a long riff repeated over a long period of time,

That's the idea behind repetitive...

not just some shit built on a bar (can't seem to translate this properly. The word is mesure is french).

Yes it is, it's the lack of dynamics. They can't be bothered to write actual riffs, otherwise they would never have full songs.

Oh no, I do. Just the bads that know what atmosphere really is.

Name a few please.

Mayhem remains to be one of my favorites
Certain Unholy Matrimony pieces, some is just plain black metal.
Abaroth
Ravendusk is alright

List isn't very big, honestly I find it to be more of the regular black metal bands that are more atmospheric. Mainly because so many others get caught up in making 7 minutes of an 8 minute song nothing but acoustic guitars.

And please understand that you have your own criteria. I happen to enjoy this slow-progression in my atmospheric bm. Are you implying that something that is repetitive cannot be good by any means?

Well its like I said before, liking something is fine. I think it can be compared to some modern art, where someone may just throw a paint can at a canvas and critics will call it genius. It's not genius, its just a paint splat. You can like the paint splat, but that doesn't mean any real work or effort was put into it.

Cause that would be dumb. Some genres have very specific objectives. So what you consider bad song-writting, might be exactly what the artist was looking for.

Well then that's just stupid, you can still write atmospheric music that isn't barbarically simple.

My god, atmosphere is not made by being slow or repetitive, its made by being a good musician and knowing how to utilize certain keys to get certain sounds. Why can't you get this through your head. Repetitiveness =/= atmosphere. Nothing in these tracks are atmospheric.

Yes, and Wolves In The Throne Room do exactly that. They are great musicians and to know how to utilize certains keys to get a certain sound.

Not in any song I've ever heard by them.

When you play very slow and minimal amount of chords in your riffs, you have to pick these chords well.

It's almost always half step power chords. There is no careful consideration. Anyone can write that shitty black metal like darkthrone and others, even you.

Same apply for genres like Doom Metal and Drone. You can accuse them of putting very little effort in their music, or understand the point of the music.

There are doom bands that put no effort into their music, and then there are doom bands that know they can actually change it up. I think candlemass is a damn good example. They may have had a slower feel to their music, but they still changed it up in a song and didn't use such a linear chord progression. And drone, well, I haven't really listened to enough drone so I won't say anything about it. There is no reason all of a band's music should be that simple. They're just using the whole " atmospheric " label as an excuse to not try.

Now, THIS is atmospheric. No metal band got shit on this.

Guess my point is, if these people are so talented, why do they restrict themsleves to such crappy music writing? They could supposedly easily write more complex, yet still atmospheric music. I understand an occasional slow piece, but there is just no excuse to have all of it like that.

Or even classical music, its undoubtedly atmospheric and yet they didn't just repeat the same little diddy for 2 hours, like Prokofiev's obsession diabloique.

Also a more specific example of atmospheric black metal to me would be Mayhem's fall of seraphs.

Couldn't you say atmosphere is kinda subjective? Different people get different vibes from music, Whereas one could say a Briano Eno track it atmospheric and relaxing, another could say it's long and boring. Another time, somebody could say a Neurosis song is atmospheric, while another could say it's barbaric noise. People have different thoughts on what is atmospheric. I once had this YouTube track saved to my old computer that was comprised completely of a man banging on some drum over a soft static hiss (Making no attempts to hold coughing or sneezing might I mind you). It was simple, and I found it atmospheric. Some people wouldn't be like minded.

Just my two worthless cents.

At 10/24/11 07:50 PM, Tobi wrote: Couldn't you say atmosphere is kinda subjective? Different people get different vibes from music,

Well yeah, but the piece would have to be atmospheric to start with.

Whereas one could say a Briano Eno track it atmospheric and relaxing, another could say it's long and boring. Another time, somebody could say a Neurosis song is atmospheric, while another could say it's barbaric noise.

Well that's more of an opinion on the piece, not whether its atmospheric or not.

People have different thoughts on what is atmospheric. I once had this YouTube track saved to my old computer that was comprised completely of a man banging on some drum over a soft static hiss (Making no attempts to hold coughing or sneezing might I mind you). It was simple, and I found it atmospheric. Some people wouldn't be like minded.

Would you really say that something would still be atmospheric to you after listening to the same thing over and over? You know fuck it, I'll write two pieces on my classical and upload them soon. We'll see how you feel.

Just my two worthless cents.

All inputs are welcome here, son.

YEeehaw! Just got some Tama Speedcobra pedals! I plan on doing some some All That Remains drum covers once I have them dialed in.......anybody else like ATR?

At 10/24/11 08:20 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Would you really say that something would still be atmospheric to you after listening to the same thing over and over?

Depends. Does over and over mean emphasized structure? I associate atmosphere with setting. Doing things that reflect said setting build atmosphere. Repetition and gradual change could make one think of cycles within said setting, like production in a factory, or weather in nature. If it's done too much, it's still atmospheric, but you get tired of it, kinda like how you get tired of repetition in life. Besides, just because it's atmospheric doesn't mean you're guaranteed to like it. Theres nothing to get, really, either you share (or have your own variant) of the musician's intended atmosphere, or you don't.

You know fuck it, I'll write two pieces on my classical and upload them soon. We'll see how you feel.

Lol k.

At 10/24/11 08:52 PM, Tobi wrote:

At 10/24/11 08:20 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Would you really say that something would still be atmospheric to you after listening to the same thing over and over?

Depends. Does over and over mean emphasized structure?

It could, yes. But for some bands that structure is virtually non existent and yet they still repeat it. I mean that's what I think it comes down to, classical music, as another example, was " repetitive " but not consecutively.

I associate atmosphere with setting. Doing things that reflect said setting build atmosphere. Repetition and gradual change could make one think of cycles within said setting, like production in a factory, or weather in nature.

I could agree with this, but I dont see it in actual atmospheric BM bands, they usually don't have a setting or anything like that.

If it's done too much, it's still atmospheric, but you get tired of it, kinda like how you get tired of repetition in life.

I disagree, there are some pieces that aren't even interesting to begin with, which I feel can only be demonstrated by the music I will soon upload.

Besides, just because it's atmospheric doesn't mean you're guaranteed to like it.

Of course.

Theres nothing to get, really, either you share (or have your own variant) of the musician's intended atmosphere, or you don't.

Well that's just it, I honestly don't believe any of these musicians are trying to be atmospheric.

You know fuck it, I'll write two pieces on my classical and upload them soon. We'll see how you feel.

Lol k.

At 10/23/11 11:53 PM, Dalnaki wrote: Never trolled their shoutbox. You're probably thinking of a different band.

Probably. That's all last.fm is for. That and going "your compatibility with whothefuckever is SUPER" to everyone you can.

At 10/24/11 06:57 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: I believe I can, i'll use bach's fugue in D minor. I've listened to it so many times, it's just not atmospheric anymore. Listening to the same thing forever and ever ruins the atmosphere.

Did you listen through the whole thing? Because in that track I mentionned by Wolves In The Throne Room, there is at least 7 riffs that are repeated a lot, each one of these have variations and the other instruments play an important part in the creation of the atmosphere. Also, these riffs are not built on 4 or 8 bars that will be played over from the start and repeated ad nauseam. Like the first riff of the track. From the beginning of the riff until it is repeated it takes a whole 18 seconds and when it is replayed, it is played slightly differently. Then the third time it is played, the words of the vocals are not the same, then the third time it is played, they throw in some keys to make it progress, then the fifth time it's played... a slight difference. Then after something like 8 times, the riff changes completely, same for the drums, the keys and the vocals sound is changed. Second riff is repeated something like 4 times, then it changes, another riff is played 4 or 5 times, than it changes to another riff.

See... I hate to make descriptions like this, but I think I still managed to make my point clear. The first riff is only repeated for something like two minutes, and it's not like there is no progression whatsoever for the other instruments during the time the same long riff is being repeated.

Yes it is, it's the lack of dynamics. They can't be bothered to write actual riffs, otherwise they would never have full songs.

Who's they? Except for Wolves In The Throne Room, which isn't even my favorite, you haven't given any names. I'd like to know a few bands you consider good and a few you consider bad among the Atmospheric Black Metal scene.

And I think the riffs they write are great. I like how this kind of band can somehow mix Black Metal with Ambient. I like the relaxing and numbing effect of this kind of music.

Mayhem remains to be one of my favorites
Certain Unholy Matrimony pieces, some is just plain black metal.
Abaroth
Ravendusk is alright

I'll listen to some of these. For the sake of knowing what we are arguing over, can you link to some tracks you think would be relevent to this discussion?

List isn't very big, honestly I find it to be more of the regular black metal bands that are more atmospheric. Mainly because so many others get caught up in making 7 minutes of an 8 minute song nothing but acoustic guitars.

I really don't know what you are talking about, lol. Except for Agalloch, there isn't much band I know who do that kind of stuff. Which is kind of funny, because I seem to be more of an Atmospheric BM fan then you and can't understand what you are referring to.

Well its like I said before, liking something is fine. I think it can be compared to some modern art, where someone may just throw a paint can at a canvas and critics will call it genius. It's not genius, its just a paint splat. You can like the paint splat, but that doesn't mean any real work or effort was put into it.

Please don't use that kind of argument. This is wrong on so many levels. Barely ever do you see any good modern artist being succesful by just throwing paint at a canvas. Also, the artists who work on abstrait work are not doing anything random, in fact, there is at least as much work needed in the process of creating a good abstrait paint compared to figurative work, because it is much harder to really create a particular feeling when you paint something that isn't a reproduction of a something that is real.

And again, I think it's even harder to write an 8 to 15 minutes long track with not so many riffs. Every single of your riffs must be well-thought because they are going to be played over a relatively long period of time. It's not like some 8 seconds grindcore riff you will hear only once on a track. The riff will be repeated over and over again. There needs to be a good work process behind the writting of this riff, otherwise you might turn-off even your greatest fans away from your work if you play a shitty riff over and over again for more than 2 minutes.

Well then that's just stupid, you can still write atmospheric music that isn't barbarically simple.

I still don't know what the hell you are talking about. Ahrimanic Trance is anything but simple. I know you are a musician, so I suggest you sit through the whole listen and try to make an accurate desription of the track while you listen to it. Try making a description that you could write down on a sheet of paper and describe all the instruments with every subtle changes. If you still think this is simplistic by the end of the track, than I guess we really just aren't speaking the same language.

It's almost always half step power chords. There is no careful consideration. Anyone can write that shitty black metal like darkthrone and others, even you.

False. You could accuse some of the most succesful bands in the world of doing the same exact thing. Hell, genres like Power Metal almost make it their moto to use power chords all the time. Can the song-writting be affected by this? Yes, of course. Does it mean that you can't write a good riff using this kind of power chords? Of course not.

Plus, it's not all of these bands who get such a big fanbase and recognition. If it was so easy, there wouldn't be any bands standing out of the crowd.

There are doom bands that put no effort into their music, and then there are doom bands that know they can actually change it up. I think candlemass is a damn good example. They may have had a slower feel to their music, but they still changed it up in a song and didn't use such a linear chord progression. And drone, well, I haven't really listened to enough drone so I won't say anything about it. There is no reason all of a band's music should be that simple. They're just using the whole " atmospheric " label as an excuse to not try.

Do you know of the band Alcest ? Bill mentionned them in that discussion you guys had earlier. This band started as an Atmospheric Black Metal band to move on later to a different sound, influenced by Shoegaze, Post-Rock and Black Metal. I highly recommand you listen to a few tracks from each of their albums. At the beginning of this band's existence, they played some of that ABM you accuse of being simplistic and uncreative. Later, with albums like Souvenirs d'un autre monde, they played a more complex, yet still repetitive genre of music. I'm saying that because the leader of the band, Neige, pretty much displayed he could write more complex music (and I bet you are going to say it's shitty and repetitive two, but whatever). My point is, that those musicians you call bad and uncreative, they play music like this on purpose.

Which brings me back to one of my original points... You don't like stuff that is repetitive... That's fine with me. But what you are doing right now is the equivalent of saying grindcore is shit because it's not melodic enough. It's not the point of the genre.

At 10/25/11 03:54 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 10/24/11 06:57 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:

Did you listen through the whole thing?

Yes/

Because in that track I mentionned by Wolves In The Throne Room, there is at least 7 riffs that are repeated a lot, each one of these have variations

Hardly.

and the other instruments play an important part in the creation of the atmosphere.

And music is played with scales.

Like the first riff of the track. From the beginning of the riff until it is repeated it takes a whole 18 seconds and when it is replayed, it is played slightly differently.

Yeahh no, that would be the half step I was talking about, where you take the power chord and move it down one fret, its still the same exact rhythm.

Then the third time it is played, the words of the vocals are not the same,

Vocals come in, okay. Still the same exact riff they started with

then the third time it is played, they throw in some keys to make it progress, then the fifth time it's played... a slight difference.

Keys come in, okay, Again still no difference in chords.

:Then after something like 8 times, the riff changes completely,

No, it doesn't. Not until about 3:40. And even then its still the same exact thing, just up a few steps.

same for the drums,

Indeed.

the keys and the vocals sound is changed.

I can barely even hear the keys, but of course the vocals change, did you expect them to stay the same?

Second riff is repeated something like 4 times, then it changes, another riff is played 4 or 5 times, than it changes to another riff.

Stop calling it a riff, its a chord. A tremolo picked chord. Riffs are like enter sandman or crazy train.

See... I hate to make descriptions like this, but I think I still managed to make my point clear. The first riff is only repeated for something like two minutes,

3 minutes and 40 seconds approx. And straight 16th notes, no changes in rhythm.

I'd like to know a few bands you consider good and a few you consider bad among the Atmospheric Black Metal scene.

I usually go on MA and search bands by genre, sooo, 90% of the atmospheric black metal there is " they ". As for my bands, Unholy matrimony, mayhem, emperor of course, for good. WITR for bad, I also kind of want to say Alcest, but honestly I haven't listened to much of their music. What I have heard was pretty lame though.

And I think the riffs they write are great. I like how this kind of band can somehow mix Black Metal with Ambient. I like the relaxing and numbing effect of this kind of music.

EVERY black metal band does this. All the bad ones anyway. I believe you said that you don't like AA because they don't do anything for melodeath? Exactly how I feel about 90% of Atmospheric BM out there. It's generic and lazy.

I'll listen to some of these. For the sake of knowing what we are arguing over, can you link to some tracks you think would be relevent to this discussion?

I think all of UM's music fits in here but I'll pick a few. But if you ever have the time you should try and listen to all of it. For the sake of saving space I'm just going to type these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBpmgBDtf Us&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVo41Hlv-
8s&feature=related
UM- Memory must remain.
Abaroth- defile the angels
Ravendusk- superdark phenomenon/ shadowcast
and of course mayhem- fall of seraphs.

Which is kind of funny, because I seem to be more of an Atmospheric BM fan then you and can't understand what you are referring to.

Its most of what I hear from MA. You may be a bigger fan, but theres no way in hell you've listened to every band listed on there.

Barely ever do you see any good modern artist being succesful by just throwing paint at a canvas.

I didn't say it happens all the time. I said it happens.

And again, I think it's even harder to write an 8 to 15 minutes long track with not so many riffs.

Not at all. I'm writing a song on my classical and it's taken me days so far. And then I wrote an ABM piece
that was 8 minutes long, want to know how long it took? 8 Minutes. And sadly it was still better constructed than anything WITR has done, and I can say this for a fact.

Every single of your riffs must be well-thought because they are going to be played over a relatively long period of time.

Again, I will ask you not to call them riffs. It's insulting. And you shouldn't do that anyway, playing something consceutively over a long period of time is not cool.

It's not like some 8 seconds grindcore riff you will hear only once on a track.

Good grindcore band don't do this, ever listen to Terrorizer?

There needs to be a good work process behind the writting of this riff, otherwise you might turn-off even your greatest fans away from your work if you play a shitty riff over and over again for more than 2 minutes.

But there isn't consideration. I can't say it any other way.

I still don't know what the hell you are talking about. Ahrimanic Trance is anything but simple. I know you are a musician, so I suggest you sit through the whole listen and try to make an accurate desription of the track while you listen to it.

I did, its hella simple, even you could play it. I'm not even joking.

If you still think this is simplistic by the end of the track, than I guess we really just aren't speaking the same language.

That's because you speak french lol. But seriously, it's beyond simple, half step power chords, no rhythm change.

False. You could accuse some of the most succesful bands in the world of doing the same exact thing.

And I usually do when it comes to BM, but no other genres.

Hell, genres like Power Metal almost make it their moto to use power chords all the time. Can the song-writting be affected by this? Yes, of course. Does it mean that you can't write a good riff using this kind of power chords? Of course not.

Right, but you see these bands actually take the time to write unique rhythms and riffs inbetween as opposed to playing the same chords over and over with no change in rhythms.

Plus, it's not all of these bands who get such a big fanbase and recognition. If it was so easy, there wouldn't be any bands standing out of the crowd.

They don't stand out of the crowd because the entire crowd is already standing.

:Later, with albums like Souvenirs d'un autre monde, they played a more complex, yet still repetitive genre of music.

I haven't payed much attention to their newer music, but it appears they have gotten better. I still wouldn't call them great but they worked more on getting rid of the consecutiveness of the repeats. Could still use some work though. But as I said with Tobi, it's all about the structure, WITR just repeats the same chords over and over without any change in dynamic or rhythm, new alcest doesn't do this.

I'm saying that because the leader of the band, Neige, pretty much displayed he could write more complex music (and I bet you are going to say it's shitty and repetitive two, but whatever).

More complex than they were before, which is good, but still relatively dry.

My point is, that those musicians you call bad and uncreative, they play music like this on purpose.

Which is stupid. That's like me having the potential to be the best guitarist but purposely playing shitty music.

But what you are doing right now is the equivalent of saying grindcore is shit because it's not melodic enough. It's not the point of the genre.

Grindcore is actually quite melodic. And what about that mayhem I pointed out? Atmospheric whilst not being the same chords played consecutively. The point of atmospheric metal is not to be simple and slow. Rather let me put it this way,

They have the potential to actually write mind blowing music, but instead they chug the same chords over and over for 14 minutes. Pretty much a slap in the face and a middle finger.

Or they just suck and that's all they can do.

At 10/25/11 07:43 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:

I'd like to know a few bands you consider good and a few you consider bad among the Atmospheric Black Metal scene.

I usually go on MA and search bands by genre, sooo, 90% of the atmospheric black metal there is " they ". As for my bands, Unholy matrimony, mayhem, emperor of course, for good. WITR for bad, I also kind of want to say Alcest, but honestly I haven't listened to much of their music. What I have heard was pretty lame though.

Ok, I say a major problem with this argument right here. And the problem is: Mayhem and Emperor are NOT Atmospheric Black Metal. At all. Sure they have atmosphere (that's kind of the point of black metal), but they aren't part of that genre. I don't know Unholy Matrimony so I can't comment. So I feel like you just don't like the whole genre of Atmospheric Black Metal. Until you list A band that is Atmospheric Black Metal, this argument is going nowhere because you just don't like the whole concept of the genre.

At 10/25/11 07:43 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: Yeahh no, that would be the half step I was talking about, where you take the power chord and move it down one fret, its still the same exact rhythm.

So because the rhythm is the same it doesn't count? I really don't understand how you analyze your music. If you play the same rhythm but on another chord, it's still different. No matter how hard you try to proove it's not.

Keys come in, okay, Again still no difference in chords.

You don't understand my argument. That is the whole point. There is a very slow progression in riffs, but other instruments will add some variety in the mix. So yeah, the riff is repeated over and over again, but you can't say you are listenning to the exact same thing for a whole 2 or 3 minutes because it's simply not true.

I usually go on MA and search bands by genre, sooo, 90% of the atmospheric black metal there is " they ". As for my bands, Unholy matrimony, mayhem, emperor of course, for good. WITR for bad, I also kind of want to say Alcest, but honestly I haven't listened to much of their music. What I have heard was pretty lame though.

I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but Mayhem and Emperor are not Atmospheric Black Metal bands...

EVERY black metal band does this. All the bad ones anyway. I believe you said that you don't like AA because they don't do anything for melodeath? Exactly how I feel about 90% of Atmospheric BM out there. It's generic and lazy.

About that Amon Amarth argument, I really should have mentionned that I couldn't care less about them. In fact, I even enjoy some of their stuff from time to time. Some of their riffs are cool and enjoyable. But I think they get way too much attention for what they actually bring to the table.

I think all of UM's music fits in here but I'll pick a few. But if you ever have the time you should try and listen to all of it. For the sake of saving space I'm just going to type these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBpmgBDtf Us&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVo41Hlv-
8s&feature=relatedsuperdark phenomenon/ shadowcast
UM- Memory must remain.
Abaroth- defile the angels
Ravendusk-
and of course mayhem- fall of seraphs.

So from the links you have shared, I can tell Unholy Matrimony is not an Atmospheric Black Metal band. And em... Abaroth neither... And em... well... there is no Atmospheric Black Metal in what you listed. But Unholy Matrimony is pretty good. Thanks :)

Not at all. I'm writing a song on my classical and it's taken me days so far. And then I wrote an ABM piece
that was 8 minutes long, want to know how long it took? 8 Minutes. And sadly it was still better constructed than anything WITR has done, and I can say this for a fact.

There really isn't any argument in what you just wrote. You have to bring some kind of support to your words.

Again, I will ask you not to call them riffs. It's insulting. And you shouldn't do that anyway, playing something consceutively over a long period of time is not cool.

I say you don't like Atmospheric Black Metal than.

And with your last statement you are not just attacking Atmospheric Black Metal, but countless other genres like Drone Doom, Ambient, some Post-Rock and even some Classical music. And I really don't care if you don't like repetitive stuff. I'm fine with that. But you have to understand that this genre serves a purpose. Who said there shouldn't be any repetitive music? Right now you are rejecting as intelligent music fans a big amount of people who like this particular element in their music. You completely reject repetitive song-structures as a valid musical trait. By the way... sorry if this last part sounds kind of weird. I'm doing my best to translate my words to English.

They don't stand out of the crowd because the entire crowd is already standing.

Nice metaphor. But it's false... some bands do stand out.

I haven't payed much attention to their newer music, but it appears they have gotten better. I still wouldn't call them great but they worked more on getting rid of the consecutiveness of the repeats. Could still use some work though. But as I said with Tobi, it's all about the structure, WITR just repeats the same chords over and over without any change in dynamic or rhythm, new alcest doesn't do this.

I do like Alcest better than WITTR, but just for the sake of the argument... I hear changes in the dynamic and rhythm, just not often.

Which is stupid. That's like me having the potential to be the best guitarist but purposely playing shitty music.

But it's not shitty music! This kind of music just couldn't not exist. It serves a purpose. Some people like repetitive elements in music for it creates a particular ambiance, a numbing effect or a relaxing effect. Bands like Agalloch or Wolves In The Throne Room and others will work on creating an ambiance that reminds of nature, forests, mountains. Yeah, I know that most BM bands, even the non-atmospheric ones also do it, but they do it differently. Based on repetition or slow-progression or long tracks, they try to immerse you completely into their music and the theme. When I listen to WITTR I think silent forest, pine trees, gray sky, solitude, despair.

Grindcore is actually quite melodic. And what about that mayhem I pointed out? Atmospheric whilst not being the same chords played consecutively. The point of atmospheric metal is not to be simple and slow. Rather let me put it this way,

It's not the same kind of atmospheric we are talking about here.

At 10/25/11 08:22 PM, Zodir wrote:

At 10/25/11 07:43 PM, TheSporkLord wrote:

I'd like to know a few bands you consider good and a few you consider bad among the Atmospheric Black Metal scene.

I usually go on MA and search bands by genre, sooo, 90% of the atmospheric black metal there is " they ". As for my bands, Unholy matrimony, mayhem, emperor of course, for good. WITR for bad, I also kind of want to say Alcest, but honestly I haven't listened to much of their music. What I have heard was pretty lame though.

Ok, I say a major problem with this argument right here. And the problem is: Mayhem and Emperor are NOT Atmospheric Black Metal. At all. Sure they have atmosphere (that's kind of the point of black metal), but they aren't part of that genre. I don't know Unholy Matrimony so I can't comment. So I feel like you just don't like the whole genre of Atmospheric Black Metal. Until you list A band that is Atmospheric Black Metal, this argument is going nowhere because you just don't like the whole concept of the genre.

This should close the debate. Well, I hope.

Damn, I hate to have to translate my thoughts in English all the time :P

Zodir said it right: "...you just don't like the whole concept of the genre." You have to come up with something else. And I don't want you to try and demonstrate that the whole genre sucks. Like I previously said, this music serves a purpose. The elements of the genre you diss and qualify as "bad" are actually enjoyed by a lot of people.

I'll end this by saying I'm not a hundred percent against you on this Spork. It's pretty rare that I hear a very good atmospheric black metal track. I myself, have digged around the genre and was pretty dissapointed by most artists I found. And even the few bands I do like don't have that many great tracks. When they properly do it though, they write very enjoyable material.

What Wolves In the Throne Room have going for them is that their music creates a trance-like effect, basically capturing the listeners interest and imagination without the need for variations. I find it great for listening to while reading, but if I want to consciously sit and listen to music, I probably wouldn't listen to WItTR.

On the subject of black metal, I just got Watain's most recent album, Lawless Darkness. It's probably my favorite black metal CD other than most of the pre-2002 Dimmu Borgir albums which will remain my favorites. I still don't know much about the band, do any of you know how their earlier albums compare with Lawless Darkness?

More Manilla Road!

Would you believe I never tried out Riot until last night?

At 10/26/11 04:29 AM, Xarnor wrote: What Wolves In the Throne Room have going for them is that their music creates a trance-like effect, basically capturing the listeners interest and imagination without the need for variations. I find it great for listening to while reading, but if I want to consciously sit and listen to music, I probably wouldn't listen to WItTR.

The recent talks I've heard about Wolves in the Throne Room has me curious. I'll give their new album a listen.

At 10/26/11 03:34 PM, batman64 wrote: Ponos man...need to talk to you about a couple things bro regarding Troll so hook me up on yahoo, Msn or myspace or here..whichever is easier. You have a good thing going and I would love to help and contribute anyway I can.

Thankyou so much, I'm sure anything you do will help. Right now I'm making demos and getting gigs in my town, we are still very underground of course.

2012..gonna be a great year for Metal and music in general...fuck the end of the world bullshit..me and my witch friends, artists, musicians, fans etc. gonna make sure it does not end and in fact become a new beginning. Shit is going down.

Agreed haha.

Also I came here to say that Zebulon Pike - The Deafening Twilight = best

Just got my Tyr - The Lay Of Thrym cd. TIS THE SHIT!!!