At 7/18/09 07:02 PM, D3NTATUS wrote:

At 7/18/09 06:47 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: I think there is a limit to subjectivity.

No, there isn't. You can base your subjective ideas on objectivities, but the essence of subjectivity is that it's different for everyone.

But just imagine that some kid would start liking it. Would my music become good?

No, because subjectivity is not universal. Everyone has a personal opinion, but there is no universal opinion. I get what you're saying, but that's not how it works.

Ok, but let's say that I would write the same exact shit music, but that my intentions would be to make good music. Would it be better just because of the intention behind the music. Don't forget that it's the same music that I wrote in the two examples.

So according to the kids opinion it would be good, even if I did or didn't try to make it good. Is it changing anything?

I think that it is and will remain crap music...
subjectivity as a limit...

At 7/18/09 07:42 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: So according to the kids opinion it would be good, even if I did or didn't try to make it good. Is it changing anything?

Nope. If someone thinks your music is good, then it is good music to them. If they don't like it, it's bad music. There is no limit to subjectivity, because subjectivity is dependent upon a human mind to exist.

Step aside boys, let the real men play:

Sleep: Aquarian, Dragonaut (so what if it's popular)
Electric Wizard: Funeralopolis, Electric Wizard
Kyuss: Supa Scoop and the Mighty Scoop
High on Fire: Speedwolf, Eyes and Teeth, Waste of Tiamat
Boris: the entirety of Absolutego
Om: At-fucking-Giza
The Sword: Freya (I'm not a huge fan, but they're good)
Bongzilla: Kash under Glass

Bongzilla is better than Weedeater.

At 7/18/09 07:45 PM, D3NTATUS wrote:

At 7/18/09 07:42 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: So according to the kids opinion it would be good, even if I did or didn't try to make it good. Is it changing anything?

Nope. If someone thinks your music is good, then it is good music to them. If they don't like it, it's bad music. There is no limit to subjectivity, because subjectivity is dependent upon a human mind to exist.

It doesn't work this way. So people are right and some people are wrong.
Is a car going at 10 mph a very fast car? Maybe if you never saw a car before. But we do not judge of the reality only by opinions. If a cop arrest you and tell you the light was red, are you going to tell him : "It's red for you. I see it green."

If someone never heard of music in their life and that they are suddenly placed in front of Simple Plan and that they like it a lot, it may be only because they don't know shit about music. If you tell someone that music is masturbation... than he starts fapping and tell you "this is awesome music." Is he right?

When you don't know shit you can't judge...
so if someone who doesn't know shit about music tell you that Ulver is shit, than he's wrong...
there is no subjectivity there...

Shit.

So because i like Trivium and Abigail Williams this huge argument erupts?
And by the way i only listen to like 3 metalcore bands and i prefer most of the other genres of metal over them (excluding power metal)

At 7/18/09 09:09 PM, Trivium666 wrote: (excluding power metal)

What the fuck is with all the power metal hate in this club these past few weeks?

You guys all fucking suck ass.

Also, I couldn't go to summer slaughter fest despite how much I wanted to go.

So yeah, i'm fucking pissed off.

At 7/18/09 08:26 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: It doesn't work this way. So people are right and some people are wrong.

Yes, when you are dealing with objective fact. But musical opinions are not objective, and will never be objective.

You used to be the guy who would always tell us that we talk like our musical opinions are facts, but here you are, trying to argue that black is white.

Is a car going at 10 mph a very fast car? Maybe if you never saw a car before.

Exactly. "Fast" is a subjective term.

But we do not judge of the reality only by opinions.

Right.

If a cop arrest you and tell you the light was red, are you going to tell him : "It's red for you. I see it green."

Right. Colors are objective, unless you're colorblind.

If someone never heard of music in their life and that they are suddenly placed in front of Simple Plan and that they like it a lot, it may be only because they don't know shit about music.

Right, but this argument is only viable because you are assuming that Simple Plan is bad music. "Good" and "bad" are opinions, and therefore, there is no set guideline as to what "good" or "bad" is, as everyone has their own personal criteria for what defines "good" and "bad."

If you tell someone that music is masturbation... than he starts fapping and tell you "this is awesome music." Is he right?

Now that's not even about music. You are now arguing the arbitrariness of language and semantics as a whole. Because language is constructed by humans, and is therefore subjective (as it only exists because we deem it so), it is, technically speaking, able to be changed.

When you don't know shit you can't judge...

Musical opinions aren't about "knowing" music. It's about liking or not liking how it sounds. You don't need to be a connoisseur to like a band.

so if someone who doesn't know shit about music tell you that Ulver is shit, than he's wrong...

No, he's not. If he doesn't like the way it sounds, then he doesn't like the way it sounds. An opinion can't be wrong or right. It can be misinformed, but it can't be wrong.

there is no subjectivity there...

holy shit, you are so fucking thick.

Bongzilla is better than Weadeater, yes. They more complex, heavier, better vox and lyrics, better riffs. Weedeater stilll rules.

Duff like, needs to stop. It's getting on my nerves. People like different music bloke, accept that please.

So lastnight i was watching TV and flicked past the community channel TVS, when i saw 'Sodom' at the bottom i quickly flicked back, but missed whatever was going on there. Show was called 'Underground Sounds' and they basically show heaps of underground bands on there, some kick ass stuff.

So i come recommending K3, they're an instrumental band, i just can't find any links, but they're cool.

At 7/19/09 01:45 AM, PenisClown wrote: Bongzilla is better than Weadeater, yes. They more complex, heavier, better vox and lyrics, better riffs. Weedeater stilll rules.

By the way, the ultimate sludge concert is coming to my city in September. Melvins w/ Down and Weedeater.

FUCKING ACE.

At 7/19/09 12:43 PM, greensucksbluerules wrote: Let me guess, your parents saw the names of the bands.

Um, no.

I honestly just didn't have a ride.

At 7/19/09 10:09 AM, Idiosyncratic wrote: By the way, the ultimate sludge concert is coming to my city in September. Melvins w/ Down and Weedeater.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

SNAP

So I seen The Hangover yesterday Bout shit my pants. Best god damn movie I've seen in a while.

Im gonna be delivered in a breif case to Nevs house and SPOLIER!!!! hope out nude at him!

D3NTATUS, I think we should stop this argument right now. I think you have your own opinions on subjectivity and I have mine.

I was listenning to an awesome folk band from quebec and in one of their songs they list a few metal bands. And I'd like to ear opinions from the Hell on bands like

Cinderella
and
Voivod

All Shall Perish - Black Gold Reign

At 7/19/09 03:36 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: D3NTATUS, I think we should stop this argument right now. I think you have your own opinions on subjectivity and I have mine.

HOLY FUCK AREN'T YOU DENSE?

Facedesk/wall/floor/world

At 7/19/09 03:36 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: D3NTATUS, I think we should stop this argument right now. I think you have your own opinions on subjectivity and I have mine.

This isn't an argument. I'm trying to help you out here, but you seriously do not understand how opinions work.

At 7/19/09 04:09 PM, D3NTATUS wrote:

At 7/19/09 03:36 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: D3NTATUS, I think we should stop this argument right now. I think you have your own opinions on subjectivity and I have mine.

This isn't an argument. I'm trying to help you out here, but you seriously do not understand how opinions work.

I'm not the one who's not understanding. I explained my point of view to my girlfriend and one of my best friends. My girlfriend said that there was subjectivity in musical tastes. And my friend said that he agreed with me. My point of view is quite simple. Almost all music is good as there is some creativity, quality work, skills in their music. But there is some music that really isn't anything good... and it's not just an opinion...

If your little brother made a drawing that really didn't look like anything...
I wouldn't say it's complete bullshit, but it's not arts... it's nothing like a Da Vinci or Picasso.

What I mean is that there is way too much music that really isn't fitting the concept of "art"
Then if we don't have the same definition for art... we are still fucked... cause you will never understand what I mean.

I know what opinions are. But I think that not all opinions are good, no matter how you will defend your point.
I feel this way about a lot of things... like politics... there are good systems and there are bad systems... though there is a lot of people who will defend bad systems. I do not think that I'm holding "THE ONE THRUTH" but I do believe that somethings are just not about subjectivity. If you can't understand what I mean, than why are we having this useless argument?

Duff, I think you need a special hat....it's cone shaped. It's over there in the corner. Why don't you put it on? While you're over there, why don't you stay there for a a while and be really quiet? And be sure to face the wall.

At 7/19/09 04:33 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: I'm not the one who's not understanding.

No, you don't understand. Observe:

Almost all music is good as there is some creativity, quality work, skills in their music.

"Good," "creativity," "quality work," and "skill" are all subjective terms that have different meaning to different people. This is why your argument fails. Some people just do not have the same standards for what they constitute as good music.

But there is some music that really isn't anything good... and it's not just an opinion...

No, that is an opinion. "Good" in this context means that you enjoy it, that you find redeeming qualities in it to the point that you accept it as something worthwhile of your attention. Some people think Fall Out Boy is good music, because they enjoy the way it sounds. They like that. But say that you don't. You can't say that they are bad music, only that you don't like them, and that you think they are bad. "Good" and "bad" are not universal.

If your little brother made a drawing that really didn't look like anything...
I wouldn't say it's complete bullshit, but it's not arts... it's nothing like a Da Vinci or Picasso.

But what makes Da Vinci and Picasso good? Some people really wouldn't understand Picasso's work, and would enjoy looking at the work of a child more. It's all about perception, and your view of the world.

What I mean is that there is way too much music that really isn't fitting the concept of "art"

Why? According to your definition of art? Because guess what; people differ on what "art" is.

Then if we don't have the same definition for art... we are still fucked... cause you will never understand what I mean.

This is what i am trying to argue here. People have differing opinions on what everything is. There's no universal definition of "art" or "music" or "good" or "talent."

I know what opinions are. But I think that not all opinions are good, no matter how you will defend your point.

J;LKFADJKLV;ADFHBAJKL;

THAT IS YOUR OPINION

THAT IS NOT FACT

The fact that you think that some opinions are not "good" is an opinion in itself. IT IS NOT FACT. SOME PEOPLE THINK SOME THINGS ARE GOOD. SOME THINK IT IS BAD.

I feel this way about a lot of things... like politics... there are good systems and there are bad systems... though there is a lot of people who will defend bad systems.

The problem here is that people think that their bad systems are good and that your good systems are bad. You don't understand this. You think that the world is black and white, but everyone sees everything differently. Communism is bad to some people, because they believe that it doesn't work. Other people think that democracy is flawed. Neither are right, and neither are wrong, because you can't have a "good" opinion, a "right" opinion, or anything. Opinions are only true to the individual.

I do not think that I'm holding "THE ONE THRUTH" but I do believe that somethings are just not about subjectivity.

Yeah, like facts. Things that can be proven.

"Water is made out of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom." This is not about subjectivity.

"Some music is good and some music is bad." There is absolutely nothing about this that isn't subjective.

If you can't understand what I mean, than why are we having this useless argument?

I'm just chalking this up to you not understanding the English language and what "subjectivity" means. Everything that isn't objective is subjective.

I never said that everything was all black or all white...
that's where you are wrong.

If you take the example of political systems. Let's say that many systems would work...
but there are bad systems...
Let's put it in a very extreme way...
If I would create a new system in which we would kill all the babies and never accept to have kids anymore in our society... it would be a shitty system... cause maybe there wouldn't be anyone bothering you when your sitting in the bus... but after 20 years the society would just fail.

Try to understand my point of view...
if someone just doesn't know shit about politics... how can he judge that a party is good or not?
He simply can't cause he doesn't know shit about the subject. So yeah "according to him it can be good." But his opinion is not based on anything else than is own judgement (which is pretty bad since he doesn't have any kind of education to judge properly).

This is what I'm talking about...
there is not a lot of HORRIBLY BAD MUSIC. I would say that 95% of music or so can be good (ACCORDING TO EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON'S SUBJECTIVITY). But there is just some music that sucks balls. And I believe that you can't judge of what is good and what isn't if you clearly do not have any kind of musical education... I don't care if you say "it sounds good to them so it's good". Is a chainsaw noise good music because I'm a pshycopatic killer? I don't fucking think so.

Also... as I said before, if you don't understand what I mean, than let's just stop talking about this.

At 7/19/09 05:09 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: I never said that everything was all black or all white...
that's where you are wrong.

You're arguing that some things are good and some things are bad. That is called "black and white reasoning."

If you take the example of political systems. Let's say that many systems would work...
but there are bad systems...

BAD IS SUBJECTIVE

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HERE. IT ISN'T UNIVERSAL.

If I would create a new system in which we would kill all the babies and never accept to have kids anymore in our society... it would be a shitty system... cause maybe there wouldn't be anyone bothering you when your sitting in the bus... but after 20 years the society would just fail.

Except that system could work. If you brought in people from outside the community, it could still survive. It's only shitty to your point of view.

if someone just doesn't know shit about politics... how can he judge that a party is good or not?

He can look at what the political party is saying. He can say "hm, do I want my taxes higher?" and vote in favor or against it.

He simply can't cause he doesn't know shit about the subject. So yeah "according to him it can be good." But his opinion is not based on anything else than is own judgement (which is pretty bad since he doesn't have any kind of education to judge properly).

THAT IS WHAT SUBJECTIVITY IS; OPINIONS BASED ENTIRELY ON YOUR JUDGEMENTS, AND NOT KNOWLEDGE OR FACT.

there is not a lot of HORRIBLY BAD MUSIC.

IN YOUR OPINION. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Some people like Brokencyde, but you think it is absolute garbage.

I would say that 95% of music or so can be good (ACCORDING TO EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON'S SUBJECTIVITY). But there is just some music that sucks balls.

IT ONLY SUCKS BALLS TO YOU. OTHER PEOPLE LIKE MUSIC FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BAD MUSIC, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY TO SAY THERE IS.

And I believe that you can't judge of what is good and what isn't if you clearly do not have any kind of musical education... I don't care if you say "it sounds good to them so it's good"

Musical education is bullshit. I said it. It can be used to augment your abilities and knowledge, but when it comes down to it, music is about music. Music can't be taught. Any musician would know that. Music is about what sounds good, and what someone will enjoy. Ever listened to Einstürzende Neubauten's first albums? There aren't even chord progressions. It's just vocals over industrial noise and metal clanging on metal. You'd say it's absolute shit, but you know what? I fucking love Einstürzende Neubauten.

I. LIKE. THE WAY. IT SOUNDS.

Also... as I said before, if you don't understand what I mean, than let's just stop talking about this.

I understand what you're trying to say. You're just wrong because you are misunderstanding subjectivity, because subjectivity IS ONLY TRUE TO THE INDIVIDUAL. THIS IS A CRUCIAL CONCEPT THAT YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING. You aren't arguing about subjectivity anymore. Subjectivity refers to beliefs THAT AREN'T RELATED TO FACT AND KNOWLEDGE, ONLY PERSONAL BELIEF.

Fuck, we really just didn't understand each other.
I was not argueing on the definition of subjectivity. I know exactly what you mean.

Fine. So, who likes Voivod?

At 7/19/09 05:38 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Fuck, we really just didn't understand each other.
I was not argueing on the definition of subjectivity. I know exactly what you mean.

No worries.

At 7/19/09 04:46 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Duff, I think you need a special hat....it's cone shaped. It's over there in the corner. Why don't you put it on? While you're over there, why don't you stay there for a a while and be really quiet? And be sure to face the wall.

I think that instead of blaming any one person, we should blame everybody.

An argument is just a statement until someone makes another statement contradicting the first.

Isn't there a new Vader album coming out soon?

Do you ever look back on your past and realize that you were once even more of a douchebag than you are now?

I just got bored and looked up the bands I listed when I first submitted to join, about 1300 pages ago..

At 2/25/07 06:36 PM, Dr-Roxo wrote: Amon Amarth.
Dethklok.
Rammstein.
Knorkator.
Arch Enemy.
Opeth.
Katatonia

Amon Amarth is awesome.. still think that.
Metalocalypse is funny. Dethklok is.. alright
Rammstein is only appealing to me because I like german. If they were in english, i would not like them at all. (as it is now, I don't listen to them much)
Knorkator makes me laugh, and they're german. I like them
Arch Enemy is for emos
Opeth is for emos
Katatonia is for emos

Why the hell did you people let me in here? That's just obnoxious.

At 7/19/09 06:24 PM, Dr-Roxo wrote:

Why the hell did you people let me in here? That's just obnoxious.

I think you were better back then :)

Arch Enemy and Opeth... emos?
cmon...

At 7/19/09 06:31 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 7/19/09 06:24 PM, Dr-Roxo wrote:

Why the hell did you people let me in here? That's just obnoxious.

I think you were better back then :)

Arch Enemy and Opeth... emos?
cmon...

Musically.. Some of Opeth's older stuff is good.
I can't stand Arch Enemy.

Now, I like Nile, Necrophagist, Knorkator(still), Amon Amarth, Haggard, Lumsk, Cannibal Corpse, Korpiklaani... Stuff like that. Those aren't in any particular order..

By the way you guys, Pokemon is metal.

Plain and simple. Also, I've been getting back into Yearning again after months of not listening to them. That is all.

I'm asking this to any Nile fans in here. What would be the album I should listen first by them?
Thanks mates

At 7/19/09 08:09 PM, Idiosyncratic wrote: By the way you guys, Pokemon is metal.

Fuck yes it is. Pikachu is a true black metal warrior, born and raised on the grim and frostbitten moors of Pallet Town.