@JayTheWiz: I find your timing rather ironic, seeing as Russo's finally gone from TNA for whatever reason.

SD:

Cole was fairly tolerable tonight........not great, but tolerable.

I wonder if Brock will have any more opponents until WM?

Either that entire Cobra bit was Vince's idea, or Santino's losing his touch.

Huh........first Trips puts over Brock, and now Orton puts over Del Rio........I approve of this.

Impact:

Wow. Just wow. That was THE best Impact I've ever seen. If there's one episode that proves what a difference having Russo gone makes, it was that. It was the largest, most insane brawl I've ever seen on a wrestling show. And it was GLOOOOOOOOOORIIIIIIIIIUUUUUUUUUSSSS. Hulk's bits were awesome. Seriously, I don't care how old he is now; DON'T FUCK WITH THE GUY.

Keep it up, guys, keep it up.

At 8/21/12 02:31 PM, JayTheWiz wrote: (Note: I tried doing this on the WWE THQ fourm but didn't get enough diversity in the opinions, so I figured "May as well try NG's wrestling club...)

May as well...but it seems like we've got a lot of newer fans now, or fans that aren't as well versed in the ins and outs of Russo's career. But I'll play along if it helps you any.

I want to take a nice in depth look at the career and booking philsophy of one Vincent J. Russo.

God help you.

The main reason is because, say what you will, he is one of the most well known bookers in the history of professional wrestling, and at one point was one of the biggest names in all of wrestling.

This is undisputably true.

I'm going to try and see where it all went wrong, and how much of it was really his fault.

Ok, fair enough. But the answer really is all of it. But we'll get there.

As part of this project, I want to see what the general wrestling viewing public, wether it be casual fans or not, think of Russo.

I think casual fans for the most part are unaware of specific writers and what they do or don't do behind the scenes. So any sort of look like this is naturally going to have to come from the hardcore or "smart" fan.

Now, my personal opinion is tha the seems like a nice enough guy, based on all the interviews I've read with him.

I thought we were talking about his job and not whether or not he's a good guy? That's certainly what the basis of my opinions associated with his name are. I don't know him, I don't really know anyone who knows him. But I know of plenty of people that have dealt with him professionally and I've seen the body of work he's put out professionally and draw my opinions from that.

The only time I've ever thought he seemed like a jerk was when I read his book "Rope Opera: How WCW Killed Vince Russo", so I can't say I really can bash the guy on a personal level.

Yeah...I've heard almost nothing good from that book, and it really exposes his principle problem, the oversized ego and inability to accept he ever made any mistakes.

That said, his creative philosphy is, when done correctly, a good one.

Yes, the problem is my first question is does HE actually have a creative philosophy. Because almost any good angle he has ever done was something that was either stolen from better bookers, or may not be entirely his own idea. Ideas that are wholly attributable to him (Brawl For All, the last days of WCW, much of TNA's overall creative direction since inception) are usually failures at the creative and financial level.

His "crash TV" style can be genuinly entertaining, as demonstrated when he was in WWF and had Vince McMahon as a filter.

Ah, but here's the thing. This is actually part of the MYTH of Vince Russo! And that myth is what got him the job in WCW. It is a myth Russo perpetuated that he was in fact the head writer in WWE and was working solo on their booking...this myth seems to also be perpetuated (perhaps unintentionally) in books of the time (like Mic Foley's) in which Russo tends to be the only writer identified by name. In reality it is true the "crash TV" style was championed by Russo, but he was one of a TEAM putting WWF television together and was overseen by head writer Chris Chresky (spelling) who passed away shortly after Steph McMahon took control of that position. Chresky is credited by those in the know (Dave Scherer is the principal person I can cite) as the person most in charge of maintaining logic and overall consistency within the storylines of the time (making sure characters acted in accordance with their history and such). Also the "crash TV" concept is NOT Vince Russo's. This is clearly a rip off of the style of television ECW booker/owner/executive producer Paul Heyman began doing once he had control of the promotion in late 93 and in many ways hit his peak in 95. The difference between the Heyman and Russo styles is Heyman often acheived the effect because ECW taped television in big chunks (running very long shows as tapings, generally around 4 hours) that would then be chopped up and put together as a reconstituted tape that would be sent to the network broadcasting them and then run (some of the best examples of this are the "pulp fiction promo montages"). Russo however was working within the confines of live TV and this made the situation tougher. But almost any idea that we can be sure was Russo's is usually an idea that clearly had already been done in ECW and is often not even a good imitation. Russo is also completely full of crap in saying he never watched ECW or gets booking ideas from TV shows he and his son watch.

Then he went to WCW and TNA and had free creative control.

WCW my understanding is he had free reign, without really the benefit of a booking committee or anything other then standards and practices for TNT, oversight.

I'm going to be honest, I like his early WCW work, but everything after the early part of regime, after the 2nd PPV he booked, just stunk.

I only sampled a little bit of his first WCW run...and it seemed very much kind of retread of what the WWF was doing...it's just that instead of a centralized authority figure, he created a shadowy group...in fact this seems similar to the mysterious movers and shakers on Joss Whedon's "Angel" also running at the time...and I believed they even shared the same name...hmmm...

When WCW brought him back and did the "re-boot" again, I like the early direction of it but eventually him and Eric Bischoff's differences just became to much and the product suffered because of it.

It's not just that, WCW was always a snake pit where the older veterans were there to get what they could get, the younger guys suffered under creative malaise and the handcuffs they had...and just general ineptitude brought on by corporate mismanagement and their inability to understand the business they were tasked with running. Also I think Russo just showed a general inability to understand talent, who and what draws and why, and his own general prejudices and obsessions with "shooting works" or "working shoots" and desire to screw with or alienate anyone he saw as undermining him.

Then, his TNA work, I cannot think of a single thing he did with TNA off the top of my head that I liked, but I do know that he did a good job of pushing young gus like AJ Styles.

Yeah...but here's my problem with the "young guys" or "future stars" tag in TNA...IT'S GONE ON TOO LONG!!!! You can't say anymore AJ Styles is "the future" he's been with the company since it started, that's 10 years now...AJ and the guys that have a similar pedigree are no longer "the future" they are the NOW.

That's actually the best thing I can say for Russo, he is about trying to get the younger guys over and to build them up to bigger things.

I agree these are great ideas to have. The problem is he has no idea how to do it, or instinct as to who actually CAN be a star.

That being said, he does take alot of pride in his work, and though that can be a good thing, it seems that he thinks he is a far better booker then he really is.

He thinks all his problems are someone else's fault. He has actually said he never made a mistake.

My conclusion is that Russo is a great guy to have as a booker, and yes, even has a head guy, but it's not a good idea to give him final say-so.

I think he arguably had one or two good ideas...but that was it, he's burnt, he's screwed, and he's not even useful as a consultant at this point.

Also, he can write a very strong start to a storyline (for the most part) but soon he will let that storyline get too big, draw it out to long, or just do something that ruins it and forces it to fall under it's own weight.

But yet he's a good booker...seriously dude, you just made the case as to why he SHOULDN'T book.

Meh, who cares? HE'S GONE. Which is why I can now LOOK FORWARD to watching Impact every Thursday now.

ROH:

Meh, after the awesome GORE-erriffic Rhino/Edwards match the previous week, this episode was kinda meh, except for the 6-Man Mayhem Match. Seriously, WWE & TNA could stand to pick that match type up; it was fun to watch.

God help you.

I'll need it. I'm only through King of the Ring 98'... Oui. I'm mainly focusing on PPVs, but some Nitro tapes that I have I plan on looking at for the project as well.

Ok, fair enough. But the answer really is all of it. But we'll get there.

Lol. xD

I think casual fans for the most part are unaware of specific writers and what they do or don't do behind the scenes. So any sort of look like this is naturally going to have to come from the hardcore or "smart" fan.

Hm, I'm thinking there may be a select few who have an idea, but then again, I'd likely only find opinions of casual TNA fans, and that wouldn't be a very fair shake.

I thought we were talking about his job and not whether or not he's a good guy? That's certainly what the basis of my opinions associated with his name are. I don't know him, I don't really know anyone who knows him. But I know of plenty of people that have dealt with him professionally and I've seen the body of work he's put out professionally and draw my opinions from that.

Yeah. I just figured it's worth mentioning. My issue with him as a person is yeah, he's nice, but he seems so smug about it at times.

Yeah...I've heard almost nothing good from that book, and it really exposes his principle problem, the oversized ego and inability to accept he ever made any mistakes.

Oh yeah. It is a good read if your a wrestling fan, but you feel sick when you read it. xD

Yes, the problem is my first question is does HE actually have a creative philosophy. Because almost any good angle he has ever done was something that was either stolen from better bookers, or may not be entirely his own idea. Ideas that are wholly attributable to him (Brawl For All, the last days of WCW, much of TNA's overall creative direction since inception) are usually failures at the creative and financial level.

His booking philosophy seems to be taking past ideas and then "amping them up"... often for the worst, enhancing the "entertainment" and taking away the wrestling aspects entirely. For example, if he were to rehash the old Ric Flair, Randy Savage, Miss Liz thing, you know, where Flair supposedly had an affair with her... then lord help us all.

Ah, but here's the thing. This is actually part of the MYTH of Vince Russo! And that myth is what got him the job in WCW. It is a myth Russo perpetuated that he was in fact the head writer in WWE and was working solo on their booking...this myth seems to also be perpetuated (perhaps unintentionally) in books of the time (like Mic Foley's) in which Russo tends to be the only writer identified by name. In reality it is true the "crash TV" style was championed by Russo, but he was one of a TEAM putting WWF television together and was overseen by head writer Chris Chresky (spelling) who passed away shortly after Steph McMahon took control of that position. Chresky is credited by those in the know (Dave Scherer is the principal person I can cite) as the person most in charge of maintaining logic and overall consistency within the storylines of the time (making sure characters acted in accordance with their history and such). Also the "crash TV" concept is NOT Vince Russo's. This is clearly a rip off of the style of television ECW booker/owner/executive producer Paul Heyman began doing once he had control of the promotion in late 93 and in many ways hit his peak in 95. The difference between the Heyman and Russo styles is Heyman often acheived the effect because ECW taped television in big chunks (running very long shows as tapings, generally around 4 hours) that would then be chopped up and put together as a reconstituted tape that would be sent to the network broadcasting them and then run (some of the best examples of this are the "pulp fiction promo montages"). Russo however was working within the confines of live TV and this made the situation tougher. But almost any idea that we can be sure was Russo's is usually an idea that clearly had already been done in ECW and is often not even a good imitation. Russo is also completely full of crap in saying he never watched ECW or gets booking ideas from TV shows he and his son watch.

This is likely true. It's also well known that Russo actually did watch ECW and was a fan... so this would be no shocker. Oh, and thanks for the info, alot of that I actually did not know.

WCW my understanding is he had free reign, without really the benefit of a booking committee or anything other then standards and practices for TNT, oversight.

Yes. When WCW finally did make a booking commitee, before Souled Out 2000, he left, and didn't come back until the Bischoff-Russo experiment. Apparantly, this also is what finalized the split he and Ferrera had.

I only sampled a little bit of his first WCW run...and it seemed very much kind of retread of what the WWF was doing...it's just that instead of a centralized authority figure, he created a shadowy group...in fact this seems similar to the mysterious movers and shakers on Joss Whedon's "Angel" also running at the time...and I believed they even shared the same name...hmmm...

"The Powers that Be" and... yeah... that... is a pretty big "coincidence".

It's not just that, WCW was always a snake pit where the older veterans were there to get what they could get, the younger guys suffered under creative malaise and the handcuffs they had...and just general ineptitude brought on by corporate mismanagement and their inability to understand the business they were tasked with running. Also I think Russo just showed a general inability to understand talent, who and what draws and why, and his own general prejudices and obsessions with "shooting works" or "working shoots" and desire to screw with or alienate anyone he saw as undermining him.

That's true. He had a bad habit of pushing "internet darlings" in WCW, like when he gave Lance Storm 3 belts with no build up what so ever. The worked shoots were pretty stupid.

Yeah...but here's my problem with the "young guys" or "future stars" tag in TNA...IT'S GONE ON TOO LONG!!!! You can't say anymore AJ Styles is "the future" he's been with the company since it started, that's 10 years now...AJ and the guys that have a similar pedigree are no longer "the future" they are the NOW.

I will agree with that. It's a good thing that A-Double is now the world champ, as he is likely the future.

I agree these are great ideas to have. The problem is he has no idea how to do it, or instinct as to who actually CAN be a star.

Fair enough. I remember one of the guys he takes pride in in WCW was the stuff he did with David Flair. Though I always thought that DF was average, not total garbage, I'd always thought that Crowbar was the more talented of the two. Oh, and Daffney, he didn't figure that out until she returned to TNA with her Zombie Hot schtick.

He thinks all his problems are someone else's fault. He has actually said he never made a mistake.

Yes, and the few times he does say that it may have been his fault (like taking the WCW job because he was burnt out) he'll turn it around and say that it still was more of this person's fault

I think he arguably had one or two good ideas...but that was it, he's burnt, he's screwed, and he's not even useful as a consultant at this point.

A pretty big issue I have with Russo is that he's actually unwilling to take that role. I remember reading that WWE offered him the position when he briefly returned in 2002 I believe, and people say he wanted to relaunch the Invasion.

But yet he's a good booker...seriously dude, you just made the case as to why he SHOULDN'T book.

Again, it's all about not giving him full control of the product. IF someone keeps his ideas in check, then his ideas typically don't get TOO out of hand.

At 8/29/12 07:00 PM, JayTheWiz wrote: I'll need it. I'm only through King of the Ring 98'... Oui. I'm mainly focusing on PPVs, but some Nitro tapes that I have I plan on looking at for the project as well.

Another thing you need to do is really try to dig and find out what is actually a Russo idea, and what may have come from elsewhere. Because again, the guy blew and still blows a lot of smoke and inflates his WWE influence.

Hm, I'm thinking there may be a select few who have an idea, but then again, I'd likely only find opinions of casual TNA fans, and that wouldn't be a very fair shake.

Yeah, I'm not even sure what a "casual" TNA fan looks like to be honest.

Yeah. I just figured it's worth mentioning. My issue with him as a person is yeah, he's nice, but he seems so smug about it at times.

Like I say, here's a guy that wants to talk about his Christian values...yet certainly missed the sermon on being humble and admitting one's mistakes...

Oh yeah. It is a good read if your a wrestling fan, but you feel sick when you read it. xD

Then that one will probably continue to be a skip for me :)

His booking philosophy seems to be taking past ideas and then "amping them up"... often for the worst, enhancing the "entertainment" and taking away the wrestling aspects entirely. For example, if he were to rehash the old Ric Flair, Randy Savage, Miss Liz thing, you know, where Flair supposedly had an affair with her... then lord help us all.

Uh huh. Russo is on record as being very much like McMahon in trying to elevate wrestling and turn it into something else. But the problem with that is wrestling is like a fictional genre, and as a sports related fiction, when you take too much of the sport aspect away you lose the principle thing that runs the shenanigans and makes them work. Russo and McMahon think the sizzle is more important then the steak and their respective failures should be a cautionary tale to anyone thinking you can go down that road.

This is likely true.

It's true, the sources I have are at PWInsider.com. They were very involved with ECW and all the major promotions of that era. They know of what they speak.

It's also well known that Russo actually did watch ECW and was a fan... so this would be no shocker. Oh, and thanks for the info, alot of that I actually did not know.

You're welcome.

Yes. When WCW finally did make a booking commitee, before Souled Out 2000, he left, and didn't come back until the Bischoff-Russo experiment. Apparantly, this also is what finalized the split he and Ferrera had.

Yeah, Russo was definitely not playing well with others at that point, he was at the height of believing his own BS I guess and probably figured if he pulled a power play, as bad off as the company was at the time, they'd beg him to come back.

"The Powers that Be" and... yeah... that... is a pretty big "coincidence".

Like I say, the guy rips off whatever he and/or his kid like on television, wrestling or otherwise.

That's true. He had a bad habit of pushing "internet darlings" in WCW, like when he gave Lance Storm 3 belts with no build up what so ever. The worked shoots were pretty stupid.

I disagree with the seemingly derogative use of the term "internet darling" when it comes to Lance Storm. Lance Storm was a great wrestler, and an underrated promo and character. I believe his tag team with Justin Credible were legitimate headliners for ECW, just didn't have much in the way of headline acts to work against. I think Storm was poorly used in the WWF and it was actually a very good move by Russo to recognize his talent and make him a focal point of the latter run of WCW. I also don't think there was "no reason" for giving him 3 titles. Russo sees title belts as "props". Now, I do AGREE with that theory, but disagree completely with the way Russo uses the "prop" in question. When title belts are treated as important and objects that performers desire, the audience will believe they are important and desirable as well. This in turn can mean that they ELEVATE the performers who hold them. As since the audience believes the belt holds value and only the best will compete for and hold it, the performer holding it, or defending it successfully and well gains more respect theoretically (one of the best modern examples of this was Mikey Whipwreck's fluke win of the ECW TV Title). This also requires a promotion not to sanction too many titles or champions (no promotion should go beyond 4 titles is my general rule of thumb, and all should have a SPECIFIC purpose and be desired by all those that fit into the "division"). But for Russo titles are playthings, to be elevated or denigrated at will, ultimately rendering them without meaning or value, and doing nothing for the performers that then hold them in turn. He killed the WCW World Title by putting it on Arquette. He killed the Cruiser title by making it a joke. He killed the US Belt through apathy.

I will agree with that. It's a good thing that A-Double is now the world champ, as he is likely the future.

Even if he isn't, it's better to at least TRY and elevate your younger talents, and promote that you have a style that's different then WWE. Something Russo and bookers like him that are stuck with a past idea of how the business works won't get. The future is now, and the best thing TNA can do is try to find a flag bearer, a "franchise" for their promotion...a lot of times that happens by blind luck and not through careful promoter design.

Fair enough. I remember one of the guys he takes pride in in WCW was the stuff he did with David Flair.

Which shows that Russo's priorities are in entirely the wrong place. Since none of that stuff really made money, and Flair was never better then average.

Though I always thought that DF was average, not total garbage,

I can get behind that.

I'd always thought that Crowbar was the more talented of the two. Oh, and Daffney, he didn't figure that out until she returned to TNA with her Zombie Hot schtick.

Crowbar was leaps and bounds more talented then Flair, and a lot of other people in WCW at the end. Daffney was always a great talent that never reached her full potential for a variety of reasons.

Yes, and the few times he does say that it may have been his fault (like taking the WCW job because he was burnt out) he'll turn it around and say that it still was more of this person's fault

Mmm hmmm. One of the reasons the Memphis territory has survived where all other territories failed is Jerry Lawler has always had a good instinct for when he needs to take a break, or bring in help. At it's height Jerry Jarrett and Lawler would do six month booking stints, when one completed their six months, the other did their six, keeping the territory and the booking fresh. This is one of the principle things that killed ECW as well. Even great bookers like Paul Heyman get burnt out, especially if they shoulder other responsibilities.

A pretty big issue I have with Russo is that he's actually unwilling to take that role.

Oh...he's been willing...

I remember reading that WWE offered him the position when he briefly returned in 2002 I believe, and people say he wanted to relaunch the Invasion.

No, what I actually understand to have happened was they brought him in as someone to read the TV scripts and offer suggestions...and they felt his suggestions were so completely whacked out that they released him double quick and he's only been able to get a job in TNA since.

Again, it's all about not giving him full control of the product.

He didn't in the WWF, and he had some really shit ideas. He didn't have it at times in WCW, produced shit. He didn't this last time in TNA, and the TV was shit. Russo just doesn't have anything to offer anymore. If he ever really did to begin with.

Another thing you need to do is really try to dig and find out what is actually a Russo idea, and what may have come from elsewhere. Because again, the guy blew and still blows a lot of smoke and inflates his WWE influence.

I'll try to figure that out... Know any resources that may help me?

Yeah, I'm not even sure what a "casual" TNA fan looks like to be honest.

I'd imagine they walk around Universal Studios alot.

Like I say, here's a guy that wants to talk about his Christian values...yet certainly missed the sermon on being humble and admitting one's mistakes...

Oh dear lord YES! The guy enjoys talking about how he found god and what not, but it really hasn't seem to change his attitude any for the better. If anything, it just made him MORE high and mighty.

Then that one will probably continue to be a skip for me :)

Can't say I blame you. Hm, you can actually find an audiobook on YouTube that hits most of the high points and where the reader calls out alot of the BS. If you are interested but don't want to get the sick feeling, or waste money out of your wallet, I would suggest looking that up.

Uh huh. Russo is on record as being very much like McMahon in trying to elevate wrestling and turn it into something else. But the problem with that is wrestling is like a fictional genre, and as a sports related fiction, when you take too much of the sport aspect away you lose the principle thing that runs the shenanigans and makes them work. Russo and McMahon think the sizzle is more important then the steak and their respective failures should be a cautionary tale to anyone thinking you can go down that road.

Agreed. I believe that the "Entertainment" in "Sports Entertainment" is more important, but WWE tends to do it in such away that it undermines the sport. Russo's booking, although to be fair he does allow the term "wrestler" to be used, is just as bad.

It's true, the sources I have are at PWInsider.com. They were very involved with ECW and all the major promotions of that era. They know of what they speak.

Yup. I remember him and Ferrera both had bit parts in that "Forever Hardcore" documentary that Jeramy Borash did.

You're welcome.

^_^

Yeah, Russo was definitely not playing well with others at that point, he was at the height of believing his own BS I guess and probably figured if he pulled a power play, as bad off as the company was at the time, they'd beg him to come back.

Well... he was never ACTUALLY fired. He was under contract with a concussion when WCW went out of business. Might of been for the best though, as most believe WCW's product was slowly getting better in 01, and I must agree.

Like I say, the guy rips off whatever he and/or his kid like on television, wrestling or otherwise.

Hm, actually the more and more I think about it... his booking style is very reminecesent to a very fast paced TV show. I also PARTIALLY blame the fact that Russo has admitted that he never thought wrestling was real, and that he got brought in by the entertainment. When he talks about "giving the fans what they want" what he REALLY means is "Giving what I would of wanted when I was little".

Ah crud, I accidently deleated the Lance Storm thing... Ah, you'll know that's what I'm responding too now. I am sorry about using that term, as I too think that Lance Storm was very talented and poorly use. That said, I would argue that Storm was never really a "focal point". It seems that Russo gave him the belts to make internet fans happy, make the part of WCW fans that were leaving due to less emphisis on wrestling happy, but more importantly, shock value. Had he gone on to win the World Title, I would probably not have that opinion. He went on too give up two of the belts, to Elix Skipper and Carl Oulette if I recall, and then him and Team Canada would be put in a never ending, decent but seemingly going nowhere feud with the Misfits in Action. Who, even I will admit, got some of the worst treatment under Russo, all talented performers who were given a VERY goofy gimmick, with inneundo names to boot. I don't remember where I read this, but I once read that group was made because Russo felt none of them would get over on there own, and that they outperformed his expectations, and I wouldn't doubt that that was true.
.

Even if he isn't, it's better to at least TRY and elevate your younger talents, and promote that you have a style that's different then WWE. Something Russo and bookers like him that are stuck with a past idea of how the business works won't get. The future is now, and the best thing TNA can do is try to find a flag bearer, a "franchise" for their promotion...a lot of times that happens by blind luck and not through careful promoter design.

True. I hope it is A-Double, as I really think he has superstar potential. If he was in WWE, he'd be one of those guys I could seeing joining CM Punk and Daniel Brian in the "I jumped here from ROH and made an impact" scene.

Which shows that Russo's priorities are in entirely the wrong place. Since none of that stuff really made money, and Flair was never better then average.

Definatly true. The one thing I think Russo did do a good job of and could take pride in is... Um... I'm not sure about his WCW stuff. 3 Count maybe? xD The first thing that jumped out to be was that he pumped new blood into Sid's career, but... well... that was already in place when he got there.

Probably Scott Steiner's push... and now I have to wonder if that was his or Bischoff or someone else's idea.

I can get behind that.

Yeah. The only real reason people trashed on him so bad was that he was getting compared to his pops... and WCW didn't help things by always trying to make that comparision.

Crowbar was leaps and bounds more talented then Flair, and a lot of other people in WCW at the end. Daffney was always a great talent that never reached her full potential for a variety of reasons.

Agreed. I honeslty didn't see the big deal about Crowbar until I started to watch some of him and David's tag matches, and became astounded by just how talented he was. Daffney is awesome, not the best wrestler, but can play her typical role to a tee. Shoot, there was a time where Daffney showing up = ratings, then she got let go by the company. Alrighty then. =/

Mmm hmmm. One of the reasons the Memphis territory has survived where all other territories failed is Jerry Lawler has always had a good instinct for when he needs to take a break, or bring in help. At it's height Jerry Jarrett and Lawler would do six month booking stints, when one completed their six months, the other did their six, keeping the territory and the booking fresh. This is one of the principle things that killed ECW as well. Even great bookers like Paul Heyman get burnt out, especially if they shoulder other responsibilities.

Yeah. If you're burnt out you're burnt out. The only way a booker could probably go a year booking a show for one promotion without getting burnt out is if that company is small and on a "one show per month" schedule.

No, what I actually understand to have happened was they brought him in as someone to read the TV scripts and offer suggestions...and they felt his suggestions were so completely whacked out that they released him double quick

Well, what he likes to say is that he was demoted to consultant after pitching his idea (though I don't believe he's ever confirmed it was that WCW Invasion 2.0 idea), but due to him wanting to be more hands on with the product, he took a job with TNA that would give him more creative control.

He didn't in the WWF, and he had some really shit ideas. He didn't have it at times in WCW, produced shit. He didn't this last time in TNA, and the TV was shit. Russo just doesn't have anything to offer anymore. If he ever really did to begin with.

Maybe it's just that his stuff, though "new" (to average fans who didn't have ECW access) just wore off over time?

CM Punk turned heel. Now he's going against John Cena at "Night of Champions". Wow... I wonder who will win. I wonder if we will have a new WWE Champion. I bet it will certainly be a surprise match, I can't possibly imagine it going one way over the other.

</sarcasm>

I actually WANT Cena to win, or atleast hold it heading into Royal Rumble. Another Cena-Rock at Mania will drive me nuts. Have Rock beat Cena again and then take on Punk.

Of course, odds are, they are going to let Cena beat Rock in a rematch at Mania. Psh, push a freash talent by giving him the biggest win in his career, what the hell kind of good does that do!?

At 8/31/12 06:35 PM, JayTheWiz wrote: Of course, odds are, they are going to let Cena beat Rock in a rematch at Mania. Psh, push a freash talent by giving him the biggest win in his career, what the hell kind of good does that do!?

Rock vs. Hogan. Remember?

At 9/1/12 12:50 PM, The-Great-One wrote:

At 8/31/12 06:35 PM, JayTheWiz wrote: Of course, odds are, they are going to let Cena beat Rock in a rematch at Mania. Psh, push a freash talent by giving him the biggest win in his career, what the hell kind of good does that do!?

Rock vs. Hogan. Remember?

Yes. That's all I ever think of when I think Rock-Cena. WWE shocked me when they had Cena lose at Mania, but they just seem to be destined to go the "Passing of the torch" route, with Cena beating Rock.

I'll admit this though, they're match was better from a ringwork perspective, but not by too much though.

Why WWE? Why? Fucking why?

I see this Daniel Bryan and Kane anger management class thing. They get some common ground going on and then the WWE Universe had a chance to vote for Hug It Out. Which by the way, I know a large part of wrestling is fake, but this voting thing I'm not sure is true or not.

Anyways we have a very nice set-up for making them a tag team and going against Kofi and R-Truth at Night of Champions for the belts and breathing new life into those belts. However it doesn't look like its gonna be that way, looks like we're back at Square fucking ONE!

I am enjoying Miz on commentary though.

At 9/3/12 06:48 PM, Armissea wrote: Oh sweet RAW is on tonight its 6:47 PM now almost time to

LIGHT IT UP

Yeah I want to see AJ bitch slap Vickie again.

Kane and DB's tag team entrance music shall be called "Bad Bromance." The hug was a little drawn out but the crowd was eating it up, (that's why I love being from Chicago) I don't think they could have gotten away with that in any other city.

Dude's hugging on Raw? Boy I sure do feel bad that I haven't watched any pro wrestling in months... But that sillyness aside I do feel like I need to try and get back into it. I kinda miss it. Actually I tend to miss this more than anything else. I haven't been posting since I haven't really had anything relevent to say. I can't judge what I don't watch. I am going to make an attempt to watch SD this Friday. Work and lack of general interest has kept me away and I do want to get back into knowing what is going on.

Did Cena cash in his MITB to get the match at the PPV?

At 9/4/12 02:55 PM, boloneyman wrote: Kane and DB's tag team entrance music shall be called "Bad Bromance." The hug was a little drawn out but the crowd was eating it up, (that's why I love being from Chicago) I don't think they could have gotten away with that in any other city.

Yeah that hug out was drawn out. Miz and Cole made it hilarious to watch though.

Miz: That's not a real hug, he didn't follow through with it...
Cole: How do you know the rules to this thing?
Miz: I don't know! I'm making it up as I go!

At 9/5/12 12:58 PM, SCTE3 wrote: He cashed it in on episode 1,000 and failed to get the title making him the first and only one to fail at doing so.

But still won on a DQ...fucking stupid company.

Heyman and Punk though? That's a bag of win so powerful that they would have to try waaaaaaaay hard to fuck up...oh god I'm so afraid they will...

At 9/6/12 01:23 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Heyman and Punk though? That's a bag of win so powerful that they would have to try waaaaaaaay hard to fuck up...oh god I'm so afraid they will...

I don't think they will fuck this up. Like you said, it would be too hard to do so. They want to turn Punk heel, so far they're doing a good job, but there was a part that you couldn't really believe, you couldn't buy it. Paul Heyman can make you hate ANYBODY! He's just that fucking good!

At 9/6/12 01:33 AM, The-Great-One wrote: I don't think they will fuck this up.

These idiots could fuck up a wet dream...I mean, they have been fucking with Punk's character almost since the minute he cut that promo last year...it's just off the strength of how well he does with the shit he's given that he hasn't just become a complete after thought for the fans.

Like you said, it would be too hard to do so.

I said it'd be hard. I didn't say it'd be TOO hard. I can think of a few scenarios they could easily do to destroy any potential within 2 to 3 weeks...and unfortunately they are the kind of scenarios they tend to default with when it comes to heels.

They want to turn Punk heel, so far they're doing a good job, but there was a part that you couldn't really believe, you couldn't buy it. Paul Heyman can make you hate ANYBODY! He's just that fucking good!

Possible...but honestly they shouldn't be turning Punk anyway...but whatever, hopefully the whole thing will start to make a little more sense with Heyman involved now. This is what he and Punk wanted when Heyman came back in for that deal with Lesnar.

At 9/7/12 08:03 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: Possible...but honestly they shouldn't be turning Punk anyway...but whatever, hopefully the whole thing will start to make a little more sense with Heyman involved now. This is what he and Punk wanted when Heyman came back in for that deal with Lesnar.

No they shouldn't be turning Punk. It would be better if they turned Cena. That would've been a bigger snap for the fans if they had turned Cena and had Heyman right by his side. However if they're gonna have Punk as a heel, putting Heyman with him is a good step in the right direction. Let's just hope they remember how to put the next foot forward.

Watched SD. Man is it hard to get into the swing of things. There were plwnty of times when I was thinking to myself "What the hell is going on?" I had no idea that Booker T was GM or that Sin Cara and Rey are back, and I have no idea who the Prime Time Players are. Ah well..

Best match of the night has to go to Rey/Cara vs. Cody/Miz. Speaking of Miz he looks different. I almost didn't recognize him, nor did I know that he is IC champ.

Did Ziggler cash in too? I didn't see a briefcase and I don't think they mentioned anything about him wating for a title shot. Maybe his fued with Orton is taking center stage.

At 9/8/12 11:07 AM, Outlaw88 wrote:

Did Ziggler cash in too? I didn't see a briefcase and I don't think they mentioned anything about him wating for a title shot. Maybe his fued with Orton is taking center stage.

No, he didn't cash in. I'm honestly thinking he'll cash in on Del Rio at Night of Champions and begin a slow face turn.

Has Smackdown been interesting at all? I decided to stop watching it since it seems like nothing more than a Raw Recap. Also Bret Hart coming back to Montreal Monday night? That's... probably gonna, be boring. Yeah I know the screw job happened, we all know about it, and he's coming back there after 15 years, but besides that what's the point? CM Punk gonna trash talk him I mean what?

I know I haven't commented in a while, so I'll get to that in a bit.

However, did anyone just catch what happened? The second Cole actually started tearing up, I had a bad feeling it wasn't kayfabe........wow, to think Jerry was just in a match, went back to the announcer's booth, and THEN this happens.

And as of now, Cole's been eerily silent........

I never thought I'd find myself saying this in recent years, but.....thank you Cole.

Jerry, my thoughts are with you bud. You wrestled a hell of a fucking match tonight. Here's to you, you can do this.

Cole, thank you for being as professional as you were.

Cena ends the night with an A+ promo, unfortunately the last hour has felt really strange with a dead crowd and no commentary.

At 9/10/12 11:23 PM, kill343guiltyspark wrote: Cole, thank you for being as professional as you were.

Cena ends the night with an A+ promo, unfortunately the last hour has felt really strange with a dead crowd and no commentary.

Yeah, as much as the rest of the wrestlers tried to make the show go on, the audience just wasn't there. They saw Jerry collapse, we didn't.

The last thing we know on Lawler's condition is that he IS stable right now and breathing on his own and his heart is beating on it's own as Cole reported at the end of RAW.

Some reports are suggesting Lawler showed signs of a possible heart attack, however this also could have been a stroke as well (if it is, hopefully it is a very minor one. My father had a mini-stroke late last year but recovered fully and quickly as we got him immediate medical assistance).

We're rooting for you King. Get better quick.

At 9/11/12 03:12 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: The last thing we know on Lawler's condition is that he IS stable right now and breathing on his own and his heart is beating on it's own as Cole reported at the end of RAW.

Holy crap! I just heard about this and I am shocked. I hope it isn't a severe one. My Dad has had heart problems and has had some very close calls so I know what this can be like.

We're rooting for you King. Get better quick.

My prayers go out to you Jerry. Get well soon King.

WWE said that Jerry suffered a heart attack. That's the last bit of information I've heard. I was worried because they said that CPR was being administered to him in the back. When CPR is being done, that means the person is pretty much dead so it can be a scary thought.

I wonder if we'll see Jerry return to the broadcast table.

At 9/11/12 07:39 PM, MudkipsPiano wrote: They better turn him face now. He's going to get massive crowd support.

Well it depends on who they're gonna have for a temporary person on commentating. The show must go on.