At 7/2/10 07:52 PM, JordanD wrote:

At 7/2/10 06:55 PM, Paranoia wrote:

At 7/2/10 12:54 AM, BoMToons wrote: I use adobe flash

Freak!

Real men use Pencil, obviously.

adobe flash? when did they take over?

Hey guys who have made flash games and gotten sponsorships.

Where do you search for sponsorship? FGL? I have used it once to search sponsorship for my puzzle but didn't get any offers. Would I get nice offers for a better and more action-packed game? If not, where else should I look?

Also, how much money did you make off your sponsorships?

At 7/3/10 04:17 PM, Toast wrote: Hey guys who have made flash games and gotten sponsorships.

Where do you search for sponsorship? FGL? I have used it once to search sponsorship for my puzzle but didn't get any offers. Would I get nice offers for a better and more action-packed game? If not, where else should I look?

Also, how much money did you make off your sponsorships?

I got $3000 off of my last game from FGL. FGL is definitely the place to look for sponsorship, emailing various portals also helps.

One experienced dev also said it's not about the genre you make, puzzle games can earn as much as action games, it all boils down to how fun the game is.

At 7/3/10 04:53 PM, 4urentertainment wrote: One experienced dev also said it's not about the genre you make, puzzle games can earn as much as action games, it all boils down to how fun the game is.

Indeed. From my experience portal owners often base their sponsorships on how much they personally enjoy a game. Obviously action games are usually more appealing and fun.

FGL is awesome for sponsorships also. Not sure how long your game was on there toast, but even after a few weeks a sponsor might come along. Can't beat the exposure.

If you're going to contact portals I'd say only contact a few specific one's, like addictinggames, nudegrounds, armor.

FGL emails me every month asking for 100 bucks. thanks for the service, but you're not seeing a dime. i'drather gamble it away

At 7/3/10 06:30 PM, Coaly wrote: If you're going to contact portals I'd say only contact a few specific one's, like addictinggames, nudegrounds, armor.

I've found that contacting *all* portals is a better option. As far as I know, the sites you listed usually sponsor games for $4k or more, which means, very high quality games. So unless you're sure your game is that good, I wouldn't stop at just those sites.

At 7/3/10 09:17 PM, fwe wrote: FGL emails me every month asking for 100 bucks. thanks for the service, but you're not seeing a dime. i'drather gamble it away

Did you make money off of FGL? If so, you owe them. If not, just tell them it was an off-site deal or whatever the reason you don't want to pay them.

At 7/3/10 04:17 PM, Toast wrote: Hey guys who have made flash games and gotten sponsorships.

Where do you search for sponsorship? FGL? I have used it once to search sponsorship for my puzzle but didn't get any offers. Would I get nice offers for a better and more action-packed game? If not, where else should I look?

Also, how much money did you make off your sponsorships?

Yeah as people have said, an original well put together puzzle game is likely to make just as much as any other game. These games appeal to a wide audience and generally have fun casual gameplay which is what a lot of sponsors look for. In fact its getting kind of ridiculous now, a lot of box2D puzzle games can sell for $10k+ and take only a few weeks to make. Other games like RPGs and action games that take a lot more work to make and probably appeal more to the hardcore gamer, often don't make as much money, which sucks.

As long as its produced to a professional level and has some original ideas then it should sell no problem.

As for selling your game, FGL is a good option but with the now obligatory 10% fee there is more risk involved with using the website. If you have a game that is going to sell like hotcakes then contacting sponsors by email might be a better option. The more games you sell the easier this becomes, I've now got a nice list of sponsors that I am on first term basis with. This also makes selling non exclusive licenses easy as simply sending off a few emails.

Uh yea if they're saying it's required to pay a 10% commission now, then I take back how awesome I said they were. IMO 10% is way too much for an automated hook up service. They'd still be making bank on 5%, which seems much more reasonable to me. If someone took your highest bid, and went out and contacted a bunch of sites and got you more money, I could see how a higher commission would make more sense. Even then sure they're getting you more money, but I bet if you spent enough time sending out emails and gathering game portal sites you could increase the sponsorship yourself. Not sure 10% is the price of efficiency.

It's still a great service, it just makes me uncomfortable forfeiting 10% of money earned on my work.

Also I think addictinggames and newgrounds still sponsor smaller games, not just 4k+ earners, maybe not ag tho.

At 7/4/10 01:17 PM, Coaly wrote: IMO 10% is way too much for an automated hook up service.

FGL does a ton to promote your games, it's not just an automated service. They manually help push great games that haven't gotten a sponsor out to the suitable sponsors, whether it be by Email, IM or even by phone.

A quote from one of the Admins:

However, I think most of this is psychological. I think all, or at least most, of you use services every day that take much larger cuts than we do. Ad services are taking 50%, MT services maybe more, some sites do a rev share, and most sites do no rev share at all (that's 100% you're not getting). We ask for a measly 10%. You know what happens when I talk to big shot business guys about our site? I get laughed at. I get told that we should be charging 30-40%. That is what agent services go for in every other industry. However, we don't roll like that. We are developers ourselves and we don't even want to be fair, we want to be better than fair. We want to offer a service that allows developers of all calibers to make a decent amount of money for the time and effort they put into their creations. However, to be able to do that we have to make money. What do we do with that money? We put most of it right back in.

At 7/4/10 01:17 PM, Coaly wrote: Uh yea if they're saying it's required to pay a 10% commission now, then I take back how awesome I said they were.

Also, you were required to pay the commission either way, now you're just legally obliged to.

At 7/4/10 01:17 PM, Coaly wrote: Uh yea if they're saying it's required to pay a 10% commission now, then I take back how awesome I said they were.

Also, you were required to pay the commission either way, now you're just legally obliged to.

Normally when I finished a game I would put it up for bidding on FGl straight away. Since they have the 10% commission fee per default I'm going to do some e-mailing around myself first. I like the site, and they are a bunch of helpful guys, but I'm not a fan of the new terms.

At 7/4/10 02:32 PM, Xeptic wrote: Normally when I finished a game I would put it up for bidding on FGl straight away. Since they have the 10% commission fee per default I'm going to do some e-mailing around myself first. I like the site, and they are a bunch of helpful guys, but I'm not a fan of the new terms.

They did say that after getting a bunch of negative responses about that, they're going to be more lenient about the rules. If you can prove that the sale you made had nothing to do with FGL, they'll make an exception. You could do some emailing, get a bunch of responses, and end up with $4000 as the highest offer. Whereas, you could put it on FGL, place the offers from the Emails as proxy bids, and get a higher bid from a sponsor you never even thought to contact, which spikes more bidding wars, in the end earning you more money than that $4000, even after commission.

On a side note, I'm starting to sound like I'm advertising their service everywhere, but I just really appreciate what they do, and how much they've helped me.

I'm positive I would have never gotten my game sponsored for more than $1000 had it not been for FGL. (I ended up with a $3000 deal, as stated in my earlier post)

At 7/4/10 01:37 PM, 4urentertainment wrote: FGL does a ton to promote your games, it's not just an automated service.

But it also is an automated service for a lot of people.
If they pick my game up, because it is really good, and go out a do that personal stuff, and get me money, then I'd pay a higher commission.

A quote from one of the Admins:

yea I've read that.

Maybe way too much was overstating it. I think the commission should really be variable, because the worth of the service changes game to game, developer to developer. Not that that's practical.

I'm really not sure what to think about the system, there are a lot of factors to consider. For instance looking at their reported sales figures, 10% commission would have brought in 400k in two years.

http://www.flashgamelicense.com/report_m onthly_site_sales.php

At 7/4/10 02:48 PM, Coaly wrote: I'm really not sure what to think about the system, there are a lot of factors to consider. For instance looking at their reported sales figures, 10% commission would have brought in 400k in two years.

Which really is chump change for a legitimate business. 200k a year for anyone with any kind of reasonable overhead MIGHT allow them to break even if that's what they bring in.

I know this isn't even a drop in the pool of money coming in/going out, (And I'm sure the numbers won't be accurate, but are here to give a good idea of my point) but let's just hypothetically say they have 5 employees, each making 40k/year. (low-average salary)

There's your 200k/year right there... in just payroll.

Don't get me wrong here, if FGL helped me in finding a sponsor I'd be more than happy to give them a 10% commission. However, when you're forced to pay 10% for only putting your game on FGL, while you are the one who contacted the sponsor yourself and made the deal, than that would just be unfair. I'm glad they loosened up the terms a bit.

At 7/4/10 03:06 PM, Johnny wrote: Which really is chump change for a legitimate business. 200k a year for anyone with any kind of reasonable overhead MIGHT allow them to break even if that's what they bring in.

Ok but what is their overhead, servers, home offices?

I know this isn't even a drop in the pool of money coming in/going out, (And I'm sure the numbers won't be accurate, but are here to give a good idea of my point) but let's just hypothetically say they have 5 employees, each making 40k/year. (low-average salary)
There's your 200k/year right there... in just payroll.

Consider how much time they have actually put into it. I'm sure it's a good amount, but not sure it's 5 employees full time for two years. Plus it's a startup company, which normally lose money for the first years anyway.

Eh maybe I'm just skeptical because actual costs and benefits aren't very clear at all, especially since it's a three party transaction (sponsor, dev, fgl) what each party should get as far as costs and benefits is hard to tell imo.

At 7/4/10 05:10 PM, Coaly wrote: Ok but what is their overhead, servers, home offices?

-Company Registration (Including any trademarks, copyrights.. ect.. ect)
-Insurance
-I'm sure they deal with lawyers on a semi-regular basis
-Taxes, Taxes, Taxes. Figure 20-30% of their total revenue goes to taxes.

I handled all the P&L reports and ran a decent-sized company for 4 years, and there are so many fucking hidden expenses that really add up and can nickle and dime a company to death above and beyond the normal ones listed.

We had to run a C&C machine, for example that we bought for $200k. We figured we needed to get beyond that 200k to start breaking even with the machine. That's when we realized we needed to pay someone 45k/year to run it. We had to pay for him to go back to school when they updated the G-code. We had to put thousands of gallons of gas into it, and pay thousands of dollars in electric bills to run it... It turned out okay in the end, but we were blindsided by additional costs, and were constantly cornered by distributors who would say shit like "You want $15.00 for that product? I couldn't have cost more than $.50 in materials!"

I know it's a different kind of company that they're running, but look at NG as a closer analog. Looking at an adbright from years ago, I think they were charging something crazy like 35k/month for a 7 word text ad below a cartoon... and Tom wasn't driving a Bentley last I checked.

Great to see some relevant discussion going on in here for a change!

I am actually totally with Xeptic on this one. I have no problem paying the 10% commission and did so on every game I sold last year, the guys at FGL do a great job and have made some of my games sell for MUCH more than they would have otherwise made. On the other hand though, I can't help feeling fucked over that the charge is now obligatory, even on performance based sponsorships.

If I post a game on FGL, and then a day later decide to go with a performance based deal offered outside the website and goes on to make $20k, they are actually legally entitled to 10% of that money. Even if the game never gets a single bid on FGL, as soon as I post it there they own 10% of it.

Quite honestly I blame developers who used the service and didn't pay the fee's for this change of terms. I have no idea how many people weren't paying FGL, but If everyone was just fucking honest and shared the money that FGL helped them earn then i think it would be a much smoother relationship.

At 7/5/10 04:44 AM, citricsquid wrote:

At 7/5/10 03:27 AM, Jimp wrote: If I post a game on FGL, and then a day later decide to go with a performance based deal offered outside the website and goes on to make $20k, they are actually legally entitled to 10% of that money. Even if the game never gets a single bid on FGL, as soon as I post it there they own 10% of it.

Didn't they say if you can show that you didn't get the deal through FGL that they'd waive the fee?

There's still the off chance that the sponsor picked up the game from one of the Emails of FGL, but I think they'd trust developers who have regularly paid their commissions in the past.

At 7/5/10 03:27 AM, Jimp wrote: If I post a game on FGL, and then a day later decide to go with a performance based deal offered outside the website and goes on to make $20k, they are actually legally entitled to 10% of that money. Even if the game never gets a single bid on FGL, as soon as I post it there they own 10% of it.

If you're worried, I'd suggest just getting in contact with them before you put your game up. FGL have always been cool in the past, and I'm sure they wouldn't object to discussing things sensibly.

At 7/4/10 09:49 PM, Johnny wrote: I know it's a different kind of company that they're running, but look at NG as a closer analog. Looking at an adbright from years ago, I think they were charging something crazy like 35k/month for a 7 word text ad below a cartoon... and Tom wasn't driving a Bentley last I checked.

Yea all interesting points.

I also wanted to bring up what if there was a service like fgl that required 20% today, or even 30% or 40% commission instead of the 10% they charge. It seems to me no one would use the site anymore, or my point is that fewer and fewer people would as the commission rose.

Tho in thinking about the factors, I've kinda convinced myself it's worth the 10% lol. I was thinking about the added value compared to the value a developer could add themselves over the same amount of hours, and no doubt fgl adds more value faster.

Bonjour

Hey guys, any actionscripters want to make a game? Have a looksy here. If you got an idea for a game you want to make im all ears also.

At 7/5/10 10:33 AM, Coaly wrote:

At 7/4/10 09:49 PM, Johnny wrote: I know it's a different kind of company that they're running, but look at NG as a closer analog. Looking at an adbright from years ago, I think they were charging something crazy like 35k/month for a 7 word text ad below a cartoon... and Tom wasn't driving a Bentley last I checked.

Yea all interesting points.

I also wanted to bring up what if there was a service like fgl that required 20% today, or even 30% or 40% commission instead of the 10% they charge. It seems to me no one would use the site anymore, or my point is that fewer and fewer people would as the commission rose.

Tho in thinking about the factors, I've kinda convinced myself it's worth the 10% lol. I was thinking about the added value compared to the value a developer could add themselves over the same amount of hours, and no doubt fgl adds more value faster.

10% is too much imo, youre already splitting your sponsorship 40/40/20 with your programmer and audio team. Thats a HARD earned 40/20, to have some site jump in and take 10 just for the convenience of not shopping your game around yourself seems too high. I think 10 undermines the effort it actually takes to make a game.

At 7/5/10 03:58 PM, Luis wrote: 10% is too much imo, youre already splitting your sponsorship 40/40/20 with your programmer and audio team. Thats a HARD earned 40/20, to have some site jump in and take 10 just for the convenience of not shopping your game around yourself seems too high. I think 10 undermines the effort it actually takes to make a game.

I still think it's worth it, especially if you're a small-time developer with average/above average games that you're having trouble selling.

If you've already gotten into contact with several big sponsors, then you probably won't need to use FGL then.

And, if I understood correctly, they did also state that all their employees were either part-time or volunteers, most of the money they earn goes back into the site.

At 7/5/10 04:06 PM, 4urentertainment wrote:

At 7/5/10 03:58 PM, Luis wrote: 10% is too much imo, youre already splitting your sponsorship 40/40/20 with your programmer and audio team. Thats a HARD earned 40/20, to have some site jump in and take 10 just for the convenience of not shopping your game around yourself seems too high. I think 10 undermines the effort it actually takes to make a game.

I still think it's worth it, especially if you're a small-time developer with average/above average games that you're having trouble selling.

i think its a good service im not knocking that its useful cause it is, and im not opposed to the commission itself, i just think 10 is too high. i mean theres audio artists who max out their earning at 10%, to say their contribution is lesser or equal to a site like FGL is flawed imo. I think they disregard that no one person is walking away with that money. Maybe it could be a tiered fee or something? where rather than it being a percentage its a set rate, kind of like how you have to pay a luxury tax when you buy a mercedes.

@Luis

That's because a lot of people treat audio as an accessory, and they really shouldn't. Don't get me wrong. Coding a game should always be at the top of the food pyramid, but art, music, and dare I say it, marketing are all necessary parts of the equation.

I've discussed FGL in length on some other (private) forum, but here was my conclusion.

The 10% fee would be reasonable if it was 10% on the money they helped you earn OVER what you can negotiate yourself.

i.e. if you have a game, and have negotiated $8000 sponsorship for it before putting it on FGL, and FGL nets you a $10000 deal on it, you should only have to pay (10000-8000)*10% = $200. This way, in the case FGL goes out of the way and helps you get a crazy $30000+ sponsorship like they did for steambirds, they still get a decent stake, but if they only help you get a little extra, you only owe them a little bit. That would be fair, IMO, but probably significantly harder to enforce

It depends. Most people use random audio from inexperienced artists in their games. I would treat audio as something more than an accessory if it's from someone talented, or a professional. The music in PB Winterbottom is absolutely magnificent, and it's a huge part of what makes the game as enjoyable as it is. However, flash games on the internet are of much lower standards, and the music used doesn't help much to the atmosphere of the game, it's just a filler for the game to not be completely quiet.

note the use of the word "most" games, so dont attack me with examples of flash games with incredible music

At 7/5/10 04:25 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote:

i.e. if you have a game, and have negotiated $8000 sponsorship for it before putting it on FGL, and FGL nets you a $10000 deal on it, you should only have to pay (10000-8000)*10% = $200. This way, in the case FGL goes out of the way and helps you get a crazy $30000+ sponsorship like they did for steambirds, they still get a decent stake, but if they only help you get a little extra, you only owe them a little bit. That would be fair, IMO, but probably significantly harder to enforce

fair but not practical in any way, I hardly see how they could successfully build such a system. Not to mention the fact that even if it does work perfectly, they wil receive much much lower income, it's basically like giving them 2% of the whole game