At 10/3/08 12:36 AM, mexifry895 wrote:

At 10/3/08 12:27 AM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: So? The middle class works hard to earn their money too. When you get into upper management you can just pay people to earn money for you and sit back and relax. Their quality of life would be exactly the same even if they were taxed 70% (not that i necessarily support taxing that much, just saying), which you can't say about the middle class.

They worked their ass off to get to the level of income that they were at. Honestly, they earned their share of money. It's not the the government's job to say, "Well you could live just as comfortably with this amount of money." Is it the government's money, or YOUR money? You could take that arguement even further and the government could say, "We feel that you have enough money at 60k/yr, you can still live off 30k/yr. It's giving the government too much power.

The big fallacy of capitalism is that rich people inherently deserve more money than poor people, simply because they've got to the stage where they actually have it.

The main factor in how rich you get is blind luck. The whole situation we're in now is evidence enough that the guys at the top don't have any more idea what they're doing than your basic guy of the street.

o If you're lucky enough to be born into a rich family, you'll have more money

o If you're lucky enough to be born into a middle- or upper-class family, you'll get a better education, leading to more money

o If you're lucky enough to be bore with a skill desirable to society at this moment in time (particularly if that skill includes being white, male and having a slightly posh accent), you'll get more money

o If the gods smile on you and your stocks do well, you'll have more money, even though statistically speaking a random numbers generator is about as good as your average investor when it comes to choosing them

o If your a cynical asshole who plans out your every interaction and would stab his own mother in the back to get a promotion, you'll do well

o If you lack the forward planning to be born in the right country or region, you're fucked

Nobody wants to go down the totalitarian route to Communism, but there's no reason why government can't promote individual freedom while maintaining a strict control on industry so some greedy asshole doesn't clusterfuck everyone beneath him to get even more money.

Bed

I need to get in on that action :O.

At 10/3/08 10:59 AM, Depredation wrote: Bed

I need to get in on that action :O.

For some reason I laughed hysterically.

Life

I can't find one on ebay D:

At 10/3/08 12:07 AM, mexifry895 wrote: If someone wants to live off a low income job, it's generally, but not always, their choice.
In that situation, I am not talking about the middle class, but rather, the lower than middle class.

Wow... just, wow...

I'm catching up on the last couple of pages of the lounge so 'scuse me if this topic has already died. I felt I had to reply to this...

Paranoia

it's stupid to say if ur born in a wealthy family you won't need to work as much as poor people. If you're born in a smart brain and a well formed body you'll need to work less than a retard.

birth doesn't provide equal rights and it never will. just live with it

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !!1!!!!1

Paranoia what the fuck are you talking about.
You can be wealthy if you try hard enough, it doesn't matter what background you come from, if you try hard enough you can do whatever you want. You are saying that wealthier should be taxed a bigger percentage of their income? Fuck that. You dirty fucking communist.

At 10/3/08 06:55 AM, Paranoia wrote: The big fallacy of capitalism is that rich people inherently deserve more money than poor people, simply because they've got to the stage where they actually have it.

The main factor in how rich you get is blind luck. The whole situation we're in now is evidence enough that the guys at the top don't have any more idea what they're doing than your basic guy of the street.

Don't worry Para. I agree with this statement even if the rest of the forum doesn't.

At 10/3/08 01:50 PM, KaynSlamdyke wrote:

At 10/3/08 06:55 AM, Paranoia wrote: The big fallacy of capitalism is that rich people inherently deserve more money than poor people, simply because they've got to the stage where they actually have it.

The main factor in how rich you get is blind luck. The whole situation we're in now is evidence enough that the guys at the top don't have any more idea what they're doing than your basic guy of the street.

Don't worry Para. I agree with this statement even if the rest of the forum doesn't.

That is the most STUPID statement ever, you get rich by blind luck?! Wow.
So if I sit in my room, play video games and live off the government, I am just as likely to get rich as a person that is working hard at his job, learning the trade and starting his own business. That's blind fucking luck is it?
If you have an idea or dream, and work as hard as you can at it, you are going to reach that goal. You are not going to get rich off blind luck, you are going to get rich from trying and trying and not sitting on your backside and moaning about why you aren't getting rich.
Stop trying to put down capitalism just because you are fucking poor and dim-witted.
Move to a communism country if you hate it so much.

This is aimed at everyone who thinks this way.

At 10/3/08 01:40 PM, SweetSkater wrote: Paranoia what the fuck are you talking about.
You can be wealthy if you try hard enough, it doesn't matter what background you come from, if you try hard enough you can do whatever you want. You are saying that wealthier should be taxed a bigger percentage of their income? Fuck that. You dirty fucking communist.

rofl (unless that was sarcasm), Paranoia is quite right in saying that someone from a wealthy background has a much higher chance of becoming successful than someone from a lower class. Taking a look at a ghetto and the crime rate/avarage income or future prospectives for kids from such a lower part of town would probably show that (will have to look from some articles on that later tonight). And yes, people with a higher income should be taxed more, simply because they can afford to be taxed more without seriously decreasing their living standards.

fuck you

http://xkcd.com/484/

That is all :).

At 10/3/08 02:00 PM, Xeptic wrote: rofl (unless that was sarcasm), Paranoia is quite right in saying that someone from a wealthy background has a much higher chance of becoming successful than someone from a lower class. Taking a look at a ghetto and the crime rate/avarage income or future prospectives for kids from such a lower part of town would probably show that (will have to look from some articles on that later tonight). And yes, people with a higher income should be taxed more, simply because they can afford to be taxed more without seriously decreasing their living standards.

No, that was not sarcasm.
Obviously richer people are taxed more because there incomes are higher, but the % should stay the same, why should richer people be punished for reaching the top?
And if you are born into a wealthier family, sure you may go to a slightly better school, but school really does not make much difference which one you go to.
My brother went to a private school, he did badly, went to a public school, did slightly better. Not much difference. It is all about your attitude and your work ethic.
The ghetto? Why is that different to any other part of the world? Yes, street crime is up. But why would that make a difference to someone's education and someone's focus on being rich (if they want to be) or successful in there career. Colleges will take anyone willing to learn and with some research into the subject. You only have to try hard to achieve. It's all about what you want to achieve and working hard at reaching your goal.

I didn't realise I am the only one that thinks this :P, don't mean to offend anyone really. Just saying what I think, don't hate.

At 10/3/08 02:08 PM, SweetSkater wrote:

At 10/3/08 02:00 PM, Xeptic wrote: rofl (unless that was sarcasm), Paranoia is quite right in saying that someone from a wealthy background has a much higher chance of becoming successful than someone from a lower class. Taking a look at a ghetto and the crime rate/avarage income or future prospectives for kids from such a lower part of town would probably show that (will have to look from some articles on that later tonight). And yes, people with a higher income should be taxed more, simply because they can afford to be taxed more without seriously decreasing their living standards.

No, that was not sarcasm.
Obviously richer people are taxed more because there incomes are higher, but the % should stay the same, why should richer people be punished for reaching the top?

Punished for reaching the top? How does having slightly less money than you would without a fair tax system, but still way more than people below you, count as getting 'punished'. Earning more money is enough on its own - you don't need to exacerbate the gap between rich and poor.

You guys should be relieved that how much money you have isn't proportional to the effort you put into work. If it was, sweatshop workers would be about the only people in the world who could afford internet access.

At 10/3/08 02:14 PM, Paranoia wrote: Punished for reaching the top? How does having slightly less money than you would without a fair tax system, but still way more than people below you, count as getting 'punished'. Earning more money is enough on its own - you don't need to exacerbate the gap between rich and poor.

You guys should be relieved that how much money you have isn't proportional to the effort you put into work. If it was, sweatshop workers would be about the only people in the world who could afford internet access.

It is a punishment if they are taking your hard earned money, just because you are richer than them. And the reason you are richer than them is because you work harder than them, you have the right work ethic, the right motive, and the right ideas. You were the person that pushed the boundaries and became good enough at your job to become the owner of a business. So maybe they don't work as hard any more? Why should they work hard and get taxed more because they have reached there goal. I think this is the point in capitalism, the chance of being wealthier than someone else because you have worked harder and have more work ethic.
I don't believe in sweatshop workers and thankfully it does not happen in the UK.
I agree that if you are born in an incredibly poor situation in a 3rd world country, and you have no education or means for knowledge, you are screwed. But that is not the point here, we are living in a developing technological society that gives anyone the right to work hard and achieve wealth.

So no, they should not be taxed more than any other person's income percentage.
And to be honest, most very rich people do donate money to charities and give back to their community they struggled in.

At 10/3/08 02:08 PM, SweetSkater wrote: I didn't realise I am the only one that thinks this :P, don't mean to offend anyone really. Just saying what I think, don't hate.

The point is, while I think everyone has opportunities to better themselves, not everyone has equal opportunities or of equal size, and the reason they don't is because of where they were born and into what family they were born, not because of their work ethic or will or anything. Also the current state of wealth distribution is insane. If you agree on these two things, which I'd be surprised if you didn't, then you'd be inclined to agree that a gradual income tax is fair... which I think was the original topic.

Also, that bed picture was awesome.

At 10/3/08 02:34 PM, citricsquid wrote: um no. Background has everything to do with it. If you're from a dirt poor family who can't afford to feed their cat anything but their own faeces, then how are you going to get a job as a CEO at a major corporation? You're not, you'd be discriminated against and end up in a low end job.

Everyone in the UK has an education, everyone has the chance to become the CEO at a major corporation. Why should this kid be put down because he is poor? Loads of people from poor backgrounds become wealthy, and yes, it is all about work ethic, attitude, determination, and will-power. Obviously if you are disabled and can not think for yourself then you cannot. But EVERYONE can achieve what they want.
What advantage does a rich person have? Really?
education- free.
college - free.
uni - get a loan, interest free.

What is stopping a poor person then?

At 10/3/08 02:39 PM, citricsquid wrote:

At 10/3/08 02:38 PM, SweetSkater wrote: What is stopping a poor person then?

You think it's that simple? Just get up and go and succeed? Good luck.

Explain your reasons why this would not work? If you know where you want to get to, why not?

At 10/3/08 02:41 PM, SweetSkater wrote: Explain your reasons why this would not work? If you know where you want to get to, why not?

Richer people can afford to send their children to better schools than poorer people, and if you think that it doesn't matter what school you go to, that's just faulty reasoning, if 2 people apply for a job, and everything about them is the same, except the school they went to, who do you think is getting the job? The person who went to the better school.

At 10/3/08 02:38 PM, SweetSkater wrote: What advantage does a rich person have? Really?
education- free.
college - free.
uni - get a loan, interest free.

What is stopping a poor person then?

That's an incredibly naiive attitude. If education was really independant from background, you wouldn't have situations of middle-class parents flooding to buy houses near better-performing schools, while poorer families become priced out and destined for more and more apathetic edication.

That's not even covering public and private establishments, which pretty much set their pupils up to get into Oxbridge, and dive into well-paid jobs after that.

Besides, how do you know that everyone's not putting in an equal amount of effort to do well anyway? It's not like we can all be CEOs. Who would we be in charge of?

At 10/3/08 02:04 PM, jmtb02 wrote: http://xkcd.com/484/

Hehe, so true :D.

CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH THE POLITICS, THIS IS NOT THE FORUM.

I've got nothing against discussing it, but this isn't the place. All it's doing is creating arguments in which no one can win.

At 10/3/08 02:55 PM, Depredation wrote:

CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH THE POLITICS, THIS IS NOT THE FORUM.

I've got nothing against discussing it, but this isn't the place. All it's doing is creating arguments in which no one can win.

no. im fucking tired of people telling me/us what to talk about in this thread. The politics forum is where all the politics dude hang out, the flash reg lounge is our own little space where we can talk about whatever we want. I find it more interesting to debate politics with someone I "know" like paranoia rather than with liberalduck3124. If everyone's talking about politics it means it's an interesting topic atm

At 10/3/08 06:55 AM, Paranoia wrote:

Nobody wants to go down the totalitarian route to Communism, but there's no reason why government can't promote individual freedom while maintaining a strict control on industry so some greedy asshole doesn't clusterfuck everyone beneath him to get even more money.

Sadly if you were to tax the rich at say 50%(this is in answer to previous discussion more not the quoted text) they would all just leave your county and take your economy with them. Then you would have to go hard core socialist. Any given capitalist state needs the rich people with its current system.

Not that I don't agree in theory.

At 10/3/08 02:55 PM, Depredation wrote: CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH THE POLITICS, THIS IS NOT THE FORUM.

Yea you're right I guess, but the reg lounge can talk about whatever. Usually we don't let topics take up more than a few pages, and this one is dying down.

I've got nothing against discussing it, but this isn't the place. All it's doing is creating arguments in which no one can win.

Well that's actually entirely incorrect, it's like convincing someone the earth is rotating around the sun, you can't prove it with words really, but rather scientific data, mexifry and sweetskater are rolling around in the sweet butter that is refuting our statements with false statements and backing up beliefs with beliefs. I did actually present data, but they both decided to overlook that. This argument is getting old for me though, simply because I don't have the patience to constantly restate the truth.

Is Breast best?
I was wandering the web as I usually do.. and I've always found it humorous how obsessed some people have gotten with the 'go green' attitude. I found this article about a restaurant that is going green, by easing the dependencies on cows and instead using human breast milk in its recipies that call for milk.

I found that kind of strange to be consuming other peoples liquids.... anyway food for thought! (no pun intended)

Happy Friday!!!

Can't you get HIV from someones with HIV breast milk?

Purposely brainless collab

Ok I was wandering YET AGAIN... and i ran across TheBoogley's userpage and in it he has these fun morphing creatures. If you've ever animated anything or are at all in touch with that aspect of flash you'd know that morphing things are one of the funnest exercizes you can do in flash... i dunno what fun timewasters programmers might have when they actionscript but to an animator this is one of those things. Anyway i was interested in making a purposely low standard collab where you just pass this file around and just have people morph and morph and morph... like very experimental shit that syncs to a track yet really has no sense of direction.. There would be something quite exciting / acid trip like about having a movie where you arent steering anyone through anything but what the last person has done and what the audio piece has in store for you.

It wouldnt win any sort of 'Deepest movie' award but itd be alot of fun / low commitment / unpredictable piece. What do you guys think bout that?

I'm seriously considering making that the next pass my flash... and itd literally be more passy than the other two installments.

Oh for gods sake. Someone call us all nazis and lets move the frag on from this conversation
I think we've covered the points. Us dirty liberals believe that some people simply can't reach the top from the gutter because the system is actually stacked against them succeeding in a society that isn't a pure meritocracy and is choked in greedy selfserving beuraucracy, and the respectful conservatives believe in equal proportionate taxes because they're sure that everyone is born with equal opportunities and shouldn't use thier background as an excuse for thier own shortcomings, that the beuraucracy helps more than it hinders and that proportionate taxes are less of an incentive for success.

Hell we're all wrong. But consider. Taxing rich people more money is a greater benefit and for the greater good because it helps more people. Are we saying that people need to be helped less, or helped in different ways?

XKCD
Thanks John for posting it. Aren't we all special... :)

At 10/3/08 03:14 PM, UnknownFury wrote: Can't you get HIV from someones with HIV breast milk?

Yah probably plus it's kind of gross... If they told me they were using breast milk I'd just leave... also I don't think easing our dependency on cows is the answer to saving our planet.

At 10/3/08 03:02 PM, Coaly wrote: I did actually present data, but they both decided to overlook that. This argument is getting old for me though, simply because I don't have the patience to constantly restate the truth.

Coaly : Richer people can afford to send their children to better schools than poorer people, and if you
think that it doesn't matter what school you go to, that's just faulty reasoning, if 2 people apply for a job,
and everything about them is the same, except the school they went to, who do you think is getting the
job? The person who went to the better school.

I'm sorry, my mistake, your 'fact' went amiss. The person with the best attitude and best CV would clearly go through. And about university's, does the school you went to really matter?
You can go to any university you want with the right grades, no matter how poor. And the government will loan anyone money, in fact they give poor people money. I would get no money from the government. It doesn't immediately mean I am going to fail.

At 10/3/08 03:02 PM, citricsquid wrote: I think his day must go something like so:
Wake up to pancakes from his servant and then skip downstairs to the swimming pool, do a couple of laps and then pop to his personal gym where he does a bit of a workout, then he heads to work in his car made of candyfloss along a road of chocolate and wild berries, once at work he's greeted by everyone happily, hugs and love all around with a 2 hour gormet lunch etc.

Ah yes, he goes to sarcasm when he cant think of anything else to say. Typical Sam. Go phish more.

At 10/3/08 02:56 PM, ArthurGhostly wrote: How has your faith in the world not been crushed, yet?

I still believe in capitalism.

At 10/3/08 02:48 PM, Paranoia wrote: Besides, how do you know that everyone's not putting in an equal amount of effort to do well anyway? It's not like we can all be CEOs. Who would we be in charge of?

It's because of people that don't believe in themselves, they don't believe they can make it, so they don't even try to. They go for the easier option of a basic job, they have no motivation.
This is where attitudes and strong personality come in. Sure, you probably will lose to a 2 person interview once or twice, but if you keep trying, you will succeed. It's because of people like yours pessimistic attitude towards getting wealthy that you never succeed in it.

This is my last post on the subject, I do understand all of your points, but I just don't agree with them. And you don't have to agree with me either by no means, I just don't want everyone reading this thread to give up hope! And I hope you non-believers get your motivation to succeed back, no matter what ethnicity or social class.

Sorry if I missed anyone out, and sorry to the mods for keeping this subject going a page longer.