Apologies for the many threads I've made in the past few weeks, I've just been overflowing with ideas for community discussions.

We're nearing the end of pride month, and I want to take advantage of that window of opportunity to discuss one of the topics that seem to spark a lot of small skirmishes in the NG art community but hasn't been thrown into the spotlight yet: That being femboys, trans people, and gender nonconformists in general. Especially towards the fem-presenting side, because that's what seems to spark the most commentary when it comes to characters or art.

I've always iterated again and again that Newgrounds should be a place for all genders and sexualities to feel comfortable, and that people's identity should not be treated as just a joke or something meant to arouse. (Sure, there are some who are comfortable being spoken to like that by friends or, more rarely, even just random strangers online, but that doesn't invalidate the need for common courtesy.) But I've run into some negative stereotypes in art or characters that aren't helping that discussion at all, and I can't put the issue into words. So my question to you all is, especially the LGBT+ voices here: What is your take on how one should (and shouldn't) depict gender non-conforming characters?

I don't yet have any good enough positive examples myself, though, and the only negative one I have is on NG, but I don't want to start slinging mud. I may come up with some while I think about this topic and read responses.

(To lay some ground rules for this discussion, here's a note on some terms and whether or not they're offensive: From what I understand it, femboy being offensive or not greatly depends on who's using it/what intent they have. I have a few friends who label themselves as femboys and don't make a big fetishistic deal out of it, but I also know that it's also a porn category that has a lot of weird culture around it. So I treat that on a case by case basis. Futanari and trap are generally way less accepted from what I've seen because of their connotations. Again it's all a spectrum of personal boundaries, but it's good to err on the side of common courtesy.)

So you don't have a start to this discussion beyond "here's a concept...thoughts?" I would hold off on making threads like this until you feel strongly enough to speak with conviction on it with your own do's and don'ts. I don't mind having opinions on potentially divisive topics, but at the end you boiled this down to generally these select terms are offensive, but some people are cool with it, but be nice.

I'm just going to throw some of my thoughts on this, in the interest of participating in the thread.

I don't think sexualized and pornographic images that are often tagged with femboy/trap/shemale etc should be seen as serious depictions of gender nonconformity (exceptions always exist). These depictions are fetishes, they aren't characters or explorations of what it is to be somebody/something, they're are solely meant to entice, and are gendered in the way a blowup doll is gendered.

Also from my perspective I tend to view gender nonconformity more as somebody being gender fluid, or non-binary. A transmasc or transfem person may not be cis, but if they're conforming to the established cultural aesthetics of their chosen gender, I take that to be gender conforming (of course many others disagree here, and that leads to a lot of disrespect and blatant hate, but I'm speaking from my point of view). Drawings labeled femboy/trap/futa/etc are all usually depicted to be a woman with exaggerated curves, hips, boobs lips etc --but wait there's a penis -- the only thing gender nonconforming about them is usually their dicks.

In good faith depictions of gender nonconformity, you're generally going to be looking at art from artists who are themselves queer or nonbinary - not always, but mostly - and they're probably just going to look like normal people. Maybe more androgynous than what is standard in character design, maybe a female character will wear baggier clothes and the male character will wear a croptop or something.

I guess if I wanted to boil this down

Do - draw normal people with mixes of feminine and masculine traits/dress

Don't - draw bimbos with big wieners.

The intent of that last paragraph wasn't to "boil it down" but more as an aside to prevent people from derailing the thread with confusion about the term femboy, since I've seen people be confused about it before.

The problem with this is that there are a lot of people who hang around in spaces that are dominated by cisgender, straight men, and so their first exposure to trans people, non-binary people, and people who dress outside of their gender would be through porn. This site has more than a few people who are in those kinds of spaces, and that's why I made the thread - to start a conversation between the LGBT+ community and those who aren't used to actually being around LGBT+ people.

Yeah. And in those cases, either the dick is treated as a "oh you're gay now!" punch line, or the feminine appearance is treated as a "I can't be gay, looks female enough!" thing. Both cases it's just men making a big deal out of being gay and reinforcing tired ideas about what how it supposedly reflects negatively on a man.

Yeah. The best people to ask about it are the people in the LGBT+ community (and usually those under the trans umbrella specifically). But we shouldn't have to be the only ones who know or care about how to do this right. And that's why I made this thread.

Good rule of thumb lol, thanks for your additions.

As someone who’s an Ally, I think it’s very important to listen to people who are LGBT+ if you’re gonna write a character who is so that you don’t end up writing them in a offensive way, even if it wasn’t unintentional. Honestly I’m glad you made this thread cause I think it can help people like me become better allies for LGBT+ people

its ok to call people out to foster discussion or prove a point

I mean I dont even know what you want because you come in and back out before you even say anything to respond to like youre afraid of the topic you yourself are bringing up

you should leave volatile topics to people who arent afraid of getting shit on

No, I think that if I brought up a specific person, the thread would be shut down quickly by the mods. I want to keep this topic constructive. Jack said enough to refer to the example I had in mind when he said "don't just make bimbos with dicks".

To answer your question, the same as any other character. Newgrounds has always been more of an underground place, with lots of edgy topics- why should someone who is LGBTQ+ be treated any different from someone who is not? I don't think putting these terms on a pedestal, where they're untouchable- which from the way you write about I gather is an opinon you lean towards consciously or not- is really appropriate here. I mean, if I could draw hyper-inflation fetish art of an average woman or man, why can't I draw the same of a tomboy, or whatever? It doesn't damage the conversation on a wider level, because Newgrounds already has a reputation and precedence of not respecting any given topic. Sure, obviously they should receive the same courtesy as given by the rules and guidelines to avoid hate speech, etc., but it's not like non-conforming characters should get any special treatment.

Anyway, I can't really say more about it than that, because I don't feel like you've really provided much meat to sink ones teeth into in your post. Yeah, you pose the question, but everything else is kinda non-confrontational fluff. You say that certain vague negative stereotypes are an issue to the discussion but that you don't know how to put it into words- I don't know what they are, so how am I supposed to know whether they are an issue to the discussion? What am I supposed to discuss? Give examples, because then we can go somewhere from there. If they're already public there's no real reason to not include them here in the discussion... especially if that's what the discussion is about!

Lastly, why did you post this if you're still thinking of things to add? It makes your argument seem not as confident.

I just live and let live honestly. I myself am an effeminate male and personally don't mind usage of the term "femboy" or even "roseboy". I genuinely not only don't care of its usage, but I don't even think it is offensive. Even with words that could be considered more offensive like "F*****T" or "T****Y, I personally think it is better to associate the words with positive reinforcement as it takes away the power that bigots try to hold over it in a negative way.

And as far as the sexual side of things goes, I feel like the most obvious thing to say is that it is okay to be attracted to tomboys, femboys, transgenders, or whatever else that is within the confines of consent, just don't be a weirdo about it is all.

Hopefully what I have said makes sense as I only joined the pride community in my late 20s since I was so deeply-closeted for two decades that I managed to convince even myself that I was only hetero, but I can follow-up more if you have any further questions.

Going to be real, people stupidly overcomplicate this shit and it drives me up the wall. The actual answer, like with a lot of things in art, is that you just fucking do it and it's actually insane that people even turn this into a problem. As an enby, we're just people, we're as diverse as anyone else, there's no nonbinary aesthetic (the idea that all nonbinary folks should be androgynous is a dumbass stereotype btw) you need to follow as a template because we're human beings and not some kind of manufactured alien pumped out of a factory.

So draw your gender non-conforming rep however you want as long as it's not singling them out in a gross way. Any good faith depiction will probably resonate with someone somewhere, without any examples I honestly am not sure what would be bad representation aside from something purposefully made as an insult.

To elaborate a bit more, terms like nonbinary, transgender (not usually gender nonconforming, as has been pointed out, although individuals certainly can fall under both umbrellas), agender, genderfluid, and so on are nothing but useful labels which people adopt themselves on their own volition as a matter of self-identity. They aren't external descriptions of a person's personality or style, they aren't measurable or quantifiable, they don't change who the person is, and they definitely aren't prescriptions for what someone's body should look like under their clothes. They might imply goals for something, but they also might not. So there's no one correct way to portray such a character, a lot of us don't even get our own identities right on the first try lol.

I'm also inclined to say that porn is completely irrelevant most of the time because gender isn't what's in your pants, whereas pornography tends to be exclusively about that. Beyond that, porn can be very validating and plenty of queers use it to explore their identity in a positive way, especially trans folks in my experience. In any case, having tits and a dick together implies jack shit about your identity or pronouns or whatever, I've had plenty of characters who bore stallion-like endowments while being conventionally feminine in every way, so that isn't automatically representation at all let alone good or bad rep.

To summarize, do the mf thing, give a character The Pronouns or whatever, rep the colours, you'll be fine. Even if you do screw up at something, just fix it or do better next time based on the criticism you get like any art. The very few times in the past where I've seen enby rep from cis artists were all great.

Do: draw whatever you want

Don't: take people telling you what you can and can't draw seriously

I can understand your need to express that there may be certain issues on this matter that are bothering you personally, however, you have to be careful when using the guise of common courtesy as a means to deflect potential criticism.

If your intent is to have the Newgrounds community evaluate our current visual culture surrounding gender nonconformity, then the discussion merits you put forth examples of what you want people to assess. You also have to be prepared to face criticism when you invite others into discussion, so don't be afraid to take a stance and be clear with your intentions.

If you have any moral objection to a specific work of art, then it would help to show what it is and make a case against it.

Now, in response to representing characters that are nonconforming to gender conventions: this is a thing that is difficult to assess. I am of the opinion that reconciling identity politics with kink/fetishism is a Sisyphean task. The reason why I say this is because we aren't really privy to the thoughts, desires, or motivations of other artists, and it is hard to make a compelling case for why certain depictions of gender nonconforming characters are socially transgressive.

Triggering disintegration anxiety or dysphoria isn't really something you can fault others for doing when they are using art as a means to express their own needs and gender identity. I also find it unreasonable to expect others to abide by conventions when depicting certain gender nonconforming identities since it is antithetical to queer thought.

It isn't someone else's responsibility to represent the identity of others in full fidelity when it isn't who they are. If one desires representation that is true to who they are, then I feel obligated to encourage that person to make something that represents that.

It is often the case that when I am confronted by something that suggests there may be something I may not know, is beyond my comprehension, or completely defies how I perceive myself in relation to others, I have felt the need to demand an explanation or create moral imperatives to reestablish a sense of order and purge any feelings of discomfort. I know where you're coming from and I sense you have good intentions, so understand that I am saying this with empathy.

I know Newgrounds is pretty lopsided when you compare the amount of art that expresses sexual desire toward feminine trans bodies with the amount of art that expresses gender nonconforming identity overall. The culture in Newgrounds is a hypersexual one and hentai is one of the social pillars through which people share common interests relating to art and sex. We have men who are attracted to trans women (either physically or conceptually), we have trans women creating idealized versions of themselves they aspire to become (and use that as a means to explore their sexuality), we have people experimenting with what attracts them, etc. Sometimes we gotta acknowledge that we aren't always meant to be the intended audience and move on.

If things aren't really catering to your tastes, then you should go out of your way and cultivate something that does. I know its hard when it feels like you're in the minority, but the whole point of pride is to make your presence known and affirm that you exist.

my only takes are.. just draw them like you draw anyone else mate, do whatever...

if you are concerned with respectful or authentic depictions(which i assume is what we are talking about here, and to me personally to respect something is to represent it authentically) use real life as reference(like your femboy friends you were talking about. or online references) and stay far from stereotypes and media depictions(not because all of them are bad, far from it, but because you can't represent something truthfully if you relay on someone else's representation, and will eventually fall into flandraizations that can be disrerspectful)

the issue with "fetishization" you brought up is a fact of porn generally not just depictions of non-conforming folks. they(the depictions) aren't trying to be respectful or present a message about the subject, they exist for jerking off.

am sorry to reiterate what everyone else said, but your op doesn't give us much to work with, so this is the most i could squeeze out of my brain.

am with you that bringing in specific names will derail the thread into lock worthy cancer, but @Template88 is right that we need actual examples of what we are even talking about. general ones from shows or movies could be good to avoid any derailment i think.

idk about jack's example, sense almost all futa art i ever saw was pure smut, an excuse to draw big boobas and bingus, not trying to represent non-conformity or intersex folks(which i would assume fall under what we are talking about... i think?).

I firmly believe there is a difference between sex and gender, and that neither should have any arbitrary baring on a person's style and personality--after all, Isn't the whole point of gender nonconformity to discard arbitrary standards?

I suppose I find the idea of applying conformity to nonconformity to be a bit of an oxymoron and a self defeating one at that.

Like others here, I'm not sure I know what you're alluding to. Maybe it was between people I've blocked? Or it's the review bombing, with attempts to bring scores back up?

Hmm. I think what's considered gender non-conforming depends on the culture.

Flowers atop long hair, rustling skirts, a dance with exaggerated hips and flowing hand movements— does this depict stereotypical feminine beauty or a group of cisgender Hawaiian man who might all be straight showing off their strength?

Another example: A long hemline, golden necklaces and bracelets and finger rings with elaborate designs, dusky eyes, and bright smile on a lean graceful figure— an Indian man, woman, or hijra? Would someone unfamilar with the different styles be able to tell from a cartoon?

And another for the fun of it: beaded hair braids, skirt in schoolgirl plaid, and heavy makeup— that Celtic warrior is ready for action.

Okay, so, styles that aren't so pretty....

Where and when I grew up, shorts except for specific sportswear, swimwear, and underwear were considered feminine, so it surprises me it's something of a standard uniform for young princes in the UK or any boys in some European cold climate areas.

More impractically... girls without ear piercings, refusing to wearing their hair long and down, going without pantyhose or tights at formal events, and showing no interest in dating boys were considered GNC (without the actual phrase) when I was a kid.

Really anything gay was GNC. It was like were three genders: girl/woman, boy/man, and "homo".

I can see that affect on my art. My idea of queerness is presentation can get blurred together or mismatched however. What's the point of sticking to boring (and often confusing) mainstream stereotypes if there's no way to fit into them?

Also when I was growing up, many of the world's most popular performers were deliberately blurring gender lines. Some later came out as non-binary in one way or another. Characters designs for kids shows were often androgynous. Ads were more gender neutral than they are today from the same companies. I'm sure this all affects my art, too.

This concerns me. Maybe you think of my art as negative examples. You're welcome to complain in DMs if you think there's something harmful in my depictions of characters.

As for disturbing examples, I can think of a bunch from outside Newgrounds. The one NG upload that competes in horribleness was one of the Mario crossdressing videos with Link vomitting at the very idea of Mario dressing up for himself in what should be the privacy of his own f-ing home.

Meanwhile, if we're including transness into being GNC (tho I'm not sure we should) then the Pride Collab contains an abundance of good rep. You might not mine, but there's an excellent range of depictions from dozens of artists.

As for dos and don'ts, in my view...?

Do make what you like. Men with fake boobs: sure. Drag kings: charming. Butch anything: excellent. The half-and-half harlequin look except with gendered attire: cool challenge. Bishounen in poofy ball gowns: yeah, it's a trope.

Don't tell someone else how to portray a character's gender unless you're paying artist or own the character.

I'll be blunt honest I don't think we need any sort of Do's and Don'ts in art. Sure some people may make stuff that's offensive or done poorly in faith, but Art is something I don't want people to be censor or have to tip toe around certain rules. We already lost creative freedom with video games and films playing it safe so not to offend certain groups. I don't want Newgrounds to end up like other sites who have extreme bias policing. If someone done something you don't like, just leave a constructive critic comment and move along. If they're doing something that's really done bad in faith then you bring in a mod to handle it.

I don't care about people drawing stereotypes in art. It's people who look at stereotypes from art and try to apply them to real people that are the problem. Nobody should be setting their expectations for interactions with actual people based on any kind of stereotype, fantasy ideal, or fetishized concept. (With the one exception being well-communicated fully consensual role-playing)

Now if we were to ask "what do you think good representation of gender non-conforming people in art would look like?" I think that would be a more useful discussion, because then it could be a discussion of opinions of what people think would be the most positive and uplifting representation, rather than basically just complaining about what kinds of erotic art we don't want to see.

Can you explain this part some/provide examples? I feel like in both spaces, it just applies to the AAA/Hollywood stuff that requires corporate investment to even create.

It's not you, I just haven't looked at your art in a hot minute so I didn't think of it.

You have a really good point all around. All types of gender expression can be portrayed well and thoughtfully - drag queens, fake boobs, everything else. The thing I'm trying to figure out how to put into words is how to tell when someone's actually being thoughtful or not. I've seen too many examples of a trans woman's genitalia being treated as the butt of a joke, or the whole "trap" character discourse where it's made into a big deal that they're anything but a cisgender woman. The reason I awkwardly tried to fit transness into "gender nonconformity" is because of those jokes, and the overall porn-brained mentality of seeing trans people as part of the third "homo" gender.

That's very true. I always say media can't influence people drastically unless they're prone to being influenced in that direction themselves. Unfortunately, a lot of people online who don't know better can take those stereotypes as fact pretty easily.

The main thing I'm trying to hit on the head with this thread is how to tell whether or not the artist themselves takes the subject of gender seriously. There are definitely some people out there trying to pass objectifying fetish art off as genuine representation. Unfortunately it's hard to pick out the examples without screwing up and coming across as gooner police. (Then again, everyone under the fucking sun thinks that's what I am anyway.)

@tydaze had a good point in that it's the people who take the art stereotypes as fact that are to blame, but at the same time, the artist and that kind of audience can overlap.

For a while I dealt with a guy who claimed he was just making normal characters who happened to be drag queens, trans women, etc. The thing is that it was all meant to be a joke to mess with one of his friends, and the jokes kept getting more and more sexualized and focused on the characters' genitalia, all to get a rise/laugh out of people. He now hangs out with older straight men primarily and keeps making the same old jokes while deflecting criticism. It just feels so tone deaf all the time, and everyone I know basically agrees that he's just trying to deflect responsibility for making what he's making, which is fetish art.

Yeah, this is good. Can you talk more about the specifics of "don't be a weirdo"? I'm trying to figure out how to put it into words and that's why I made this thread.

I guess the "chaser" sorta stuff?

Most high budget Hollywood movie. But I'm going to focus on Star Wars as I was a fan. The Prequels had it's problems, but it wasn't that terrible compare to the Sequels and other recent star war shows. I can only think of Andor, Mandalorian season 1, and Rogue One being decent canon era Star Wars films. They don't have unappealing annoying characters, they didn't checklist stuff like nostalgia baiting shit, the stories were interesting enough to be watchable, and overall it felt more Star Wars world. Shows like Obi wan or that god awful Acolyte were both failures that felt they didn't have any creative freedom and all they did was checklist stuff hoping it would auto them a success. The saddest part of how retarded Disney is that they had the huge EU Star Wars catalog to use for reference, but they didn't use it and instead made their own lame ass version of canon Star Wars that has completely tarnish Star Wars reputation.

For AAA my goodness have you seen the countless GAAS games coming out with the same boring gameplay, packed with microtransactions/battlepass to milk consumers, and on top of that boring unappealing art direction? You have COD and your average mainstream games doing this. I say one huge example was Concord and it show how creatively bankrupt the industry has gotten due to chasing trends for money sake. These are AAA budget games where that money could have funded some indie or AA creative type games.

Can we get back to the original question, please.

or at least I don’t get how the Star Wars/micro-transactions/etc. post above me has anything to do with gender non-conformity.

Whatever Corporations do doesn’t affect your creative freedoms as an individual.

Unfortunate due to those that view being subtle as deception it needs to be obvious. More unfortunate that subtle has been used in the past but the so called nostalgic either fail or choose not to acknowledge it. 

Free to make the show you please, but the stage could be controlled by them at this time by so called heckle. They do not mind calling the cane at any moment even before the show starts. Leads the question when to take the gamble. It may be ahead of the time but if it inspires someone at that moment it can be worth it.

My only two cents on this topic is that it bugs me when an artist seems to exclusively depict transmen as feminine but aren't privy to depicting transwomen as masculine.

I'm a firm believer that as an artist, you can do whatever the hell you want; express yourself and your beliefs however the hell you want. If I'm uncomfortable with it, I'll just not look at it. Simple as.

Wegra isn't here.

I can't offend them if I don't depict them incorrectly, so to play it safe, I won't depict them. Because, you write what you know. Therefore, I won't pretend to know, so my characters will be written accurately because they'll be depicted how they're meant to be depicted.

Okay. So we need examples and more conviction. Right.

At the risk of derailing this thread by turning it into a lolcow dunkfest, let's start with one we can all agree on, focusing on the trans part of the perceived "third homo gender" group that @shadowfals mentioned.

RCDart's Awkward Trans Pinup Phase

(Note: Do not go after this artist because of their old shit. They've sorted out themselves and their art since this time, and so you would be achieving nothing.)

To the untrained eye this would look like Curly from Mouthwashing, but it's an old 2010s depiction of Steve Rogers (Captain America) as a trans man. The artworks gave him the proportions of a wasp and put him in poses that emphasized his chest and hips. Not only that, but it was also the way the artist treated the subject in commentary in their posts:

"i actually hc steve to get top surgery pretty early on, but also, If He Didn’t, i only think he’d wear a binder like 10% of the time he’s concious bc fuck dat shit he’s in the future and buff he doesnt need to hide his tits."

One user also noted about the art in the artist's NSFW alt:

"Ok, so, all of their regular art of steve had him post-op or binding and talking about feeling dysphoric about his chest…had him muscular and looking like a Regular Reasonably-Proportioned Person…..and then all of their porn art focused on giving him exaggerated breasts and huge thighs and big lips and eyelashes and soft arms and a tiny waist and other exaggerated “feminine” proportions. Exclusively for porn. There’s a difference between appreciation and fetishization, and this was a lot closer to the latter… There was also the matter of the noticeable difference between how they drew cis girls and trans girls. Their trans girls were all huge and muscular with strong jaws and other “masculine” traits, whereas cis girls weren’t nearly as exaggerated (and also their body types were much less stylized than steve’s, which, yikes). They repeatedly exaggerated their trans characters into gross caricatures in ways that were very very different to how they represented cis characters."

There is a difference between design alone and the treatment of the design/intention behind the design, but design also does play a part to some extent. That's what I'm trying to get at with this thread.

Now for another one, less universally hated, that's about drag queens:

Mermaid Sisters (Carole and Tuesday)

I love the song as much as anyone else, but the context it's in makes it way worse. The entire thing is played as a joke, with two punch lines:

1. The anime leads you to expect beautiful women, but instead gives you caricature-like men in drag as a punch line
2. The drag queens' entire act is played as a joke where the punch line is that they're disqualified for being too vulgar.

There are much better examples of gender nonconformity in anime (someone mentioned bishounen and I absolutely agree) but there are also a lot of examples of stereotypical, mocking stuff like this. It reminds me of alt-right caricatures of trans women in a way, because they, too, always seem to have beards.

I hope this post was coherent enough to take the thread in the direction I wanted.

Let's hear more good and bad examples.

Totally, especially with the first sentence! In a decade where every site is changing itself and heavily suppressing in favorite of corporate, government and religious interests, Newgrounds truly does feel like an oasis in the desert. It's one of the last bastions of unfiltered creative freedom we have on the internet.