3D Game Engine

DeepBlue

Member since: Aug. 10, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 19:19:43

At 5/23/05 08:41 AM, Inglor wrote:
At 5/22/05 11:35 PM, DeepBlue wrote:
p.s.
tom, you don't have to know vector maths at all, you can just represent your lines with 3 equations (xy,xz,yz) and your planes as ax+by+cz+d=0 instead of doing vectors ((x,y,z)+t(a,b,c) nad (x,y,z)+t(a,b,c)+s(d,e,f))

I only switched to vectors lately, overall I still have to eventually convert everything to virtual points, vecrors just have a scalar length value too, so they're easier to use when initiallized properly,

the biggest problam is perspective, triangles were the first step in my way, cubes and boxes are rather easy to make, I can also do circles and elipses (which took me alot of time) the elipse texturizing is horrible (still needs alot of work), right now I'm starting to parse non-premitive shape, very annoying math :P

oh well, I've got a long way, I sure do hope the new flash player will help speed my 3d up

perspective is painful, so thats where i started from when building it up. I started with just equations for lines and planes then switched to vectors but I'm beggining to think the only way to do it really properly is with matrices, and all its possibilities for transformations...damn that linear algebra class i took!

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squirrelg0dsgay

Member since: Mar. 11, 2005

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 20:57:06

i used fire works as in http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=fireworks

3D Game Engine

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Siggy0501

Member since: Jan. 8, 2005

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 20:59:31

i don't care about your fireworks on my topic. sorry. please don't post here if you don't have to tell me about 3D Game Engines.

wtf is a siggy?

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Arab

Member since: Dec. 4, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 20:59:48

At 5/22/05 11:35 PM, DeepBlue wrote: aztec did you ever get the layering issue resolved on the surfaces of that cube in your demo?

No actually, I havent had much time for Flash lately with all of school projects and sports and what not. I hope to get that done soon though as it will probably be done about 10-15 minutes from when I finally get a chance to work on it. Also to "DeepBlue" I'm pretty sure your name was...The by far best way to do 3D is using a matrix (That's what I do). I'm also hoping to show some 3D scripted models here just as examples if I get the time. If anyone wants anything done for a game or something I would be glad to help as long as the 3D that I do doesnt make up like 90% of the game meaning I end up doing all the work. Unfortunately, like I said, I don't have much time these days but I would be glad to try and make some if it means I'm collaborating with someone. I could do the actual gameplay scripting pretty quickly but it's the interfaces and menus and all that extra stuff that I really don't have the patience for right now.

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DeepBlue

Member since: Aug. 10, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 22:47:07

hmm a collaboration on a 3d game in flash....sounds dope.

then again it seems like everyone in this forum wants to do a collab of some sort...

still though, from seeing what you (aztec) have been working on, and delta_luca...and comparing it to my own...i think we are all working towards the same sort of approach...
that is something to the extent of programming models by hand by essentially giving flash coordinates, transforming them as necessary, and telling it in what order to add fills.

then again it also seems like none of us are entirely satisfied with our engines as of yet... and obviously performance is going to be a huge issue...but i think we know AS is not ideal for 3d though we are trying it because of the audience we could reach and also because there hasn't really been anything like it done before

i would be stoked to work with someone or a couple of people on a game, people who already have basic understanding of whats going on and how to do it,
though i would also like to finish my little demo first...

working on this project though makes me think that to develop a 'real game' completly one needs more then one person...at least to work quickly...its too easy to get caught up in details, and spend weeks adjusting one model or to find one bug if one gets lost in the math.

so far the way i've done it is that every object is essentially independent from every other object (so long as the layers don't conflict) and if this did turn out to be true for the 'right' way of doing 3d in AS then its just a matter of getting a lot of people to make a lot of models and bam one 2/3rds there to a game. The rest is just physics and colision detection, which i feel would be easier on the processor because it doesn't have to render it, just know what to do with the rendered objects persay.

if you guys are interested in working together at some point, just post back, also my aim is deepbluepyrat

p.s. delta luca your 'airduct 3d simulator' is dope...i like it alot and congratulations, i'm impressed.

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DZeil

Member since: May. 13, 2005

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 23:25:07

At 5/21/05 07:07 PM, Insignificance wrote:
k, I just began scripting. I will not go into detail, but just to let you know that I'm not a noob (html, css, xhtml, as, php, cgi (w/ perl), js, mysql, apache...) those are the languages that i either know, or am learning. actually mySQL and apache aren't scripts, but...i guess they go under the PHP category.

anyways, now that you know my skill level, i have a simple question.

Is there any 3D engine that I can script via ActionScript 2.0, and NOT C++?

I want to make a 3d engine in actionscript, if possible, not c++. I know that this is a stupid question, but please answer it (i am only 12 yrs old :-P)

HTML, CSS, and the rest are glorified rich text. Learn Java, or some sort of real language.

It is not realistic to make a flash 3d engine. There is a reason that flash is not a 3d program, and why 3d programs are not flash: they are two different things!

3d systems require maps, models, data files, things like this. Not only that, but they work off of wire-frames and particle systems. Flash hogs up memory and CPU use like a pig when I had a small ammount of vertexes (small relative to a 3d system) in motion. Graphics in flash aren't all up to par with games past the Wolfenstine/Hexin days either: you will not get anything close to quake 1 graphics.

The scripting (although I am new to it), doesn't seem like it's the best choice for handeling the system either. Folding and changing textures on-the-fly doesn't seem to be flash's job, however, animations and flat games seem to be more realistic for use.

Flash doesn't have the processing power to handle a 3d engine. However, some one did build the first level of quake 1 with shockwave - granted, there were no character models or items (probably, because as I said, it would run them like a pig, like some of the shockwave games I played that did have them).

Shockwave != flash

If you want to do some 3d graphic type stuff, I suggest looking into the open source program "Blender 3D."

If you're looking into programing a 3d engine, you will need some math beyond grade 8 to do it.

(I want to program an "n'th-D" engine, just to confuse myself to hell when I shoot some one, but one direction ends up being a small periodic dimention and I end up killing myself, hah! I'd need like 5 mice to play the game... oh I'll do it one day!).

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DeepBlue

Member since: Aug. 10, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 23:53:04

At 5/23/05 11:25 PM, DZeil wrote: It is not realistic to make a flash 3d engine. There is a reason that flash is not a 3d program, and why 3d programs are not flash: they are two different things!

No look, believe me, I'm well aware of the limitations of flash...if anyone knows its people who try to do to pull it off. But at the same time its not 'impossible'. Not only that, but I genuinely believe its possible to make a really incredible ground breaking game in flash...it just takes a bit of vision.
I'm not trying to fight the system here...if it's not possible then quite frankly it wouldn't be possible....but even in this very thread there are half a dozen examples that all indicate it is. I feel this is an avenue that hasn't been properly explored...or maybe not even that it hasn't been explored but has only now just become feasibly possible in flash. Yeah one could do spinning 3d cubes in flash 4, but one wouldn't neccessarily have the processing power to do a full game. Yes this approach is exceptionally processer intensive, but it's also extremely flexible...one doesn't need any installs, and it could completly change web design.
I don't mean to sound like a prophet here...but if one could create 3d enviroments in flash one could actually be in a 3d room of somebodys photo gallery instead of looking at snapshots...or set that html page as your background on your desktop and have your desktop literally be like an office one walks around in...or a house...or any enviroment of ones chosing...yeah there are programs that do that like 3dna but they feel so awkward...this is just like any other webpage.
Rez would be a great candidate to be ported to flash...or at least a level from it...all the models are mathematically esthetic and the gameplay is exceptionally innovative...even if it is a couple of years old now and its entirely feasible with this technology.

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DeepBlue

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-23 23:58:54

god, that was slighlty incoherant

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jkhkhj

Member since: Aug. 22, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-24 18:39:34

Delta's engine OWNS. Best 3d engine i've ever seen in flash.

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Arab

Member since: Dec. 4, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-24 22:12:37

There is no difference between scripting 3D in flash and the way a normal 3D program works. They both use a matrix to set up coordinates and a program to run through them and calculate where things are. Then they just rerender and flatten them out, add lines and textures and there you go. That's the same way it will work in Action Script (or at least how mine works) and it works great. So don't give me (or anyone else for that matter) any crap about how 3D "just can't" work in Flash.

Yes, I would love to do a collab with a few people. Not like a collab you advertise and have 10-20 people or more in but just between me and like 2 others maybe...

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BLUEleaf

Member since: Sep. 24, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-24 22:31:59

You do realise that it's possible to load 3D Drivers into Flash, such as OpenGL or DirectX.
But the drivers need to be loaded from the page (or possibly batched in the flash file). But NG doesn't allow that yet.
I think Tom or Wade should have the 3D libraries avaliable for users to retrieve...

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The-Mercenary

Member since: Jan. 22, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-24 23:45:19

this is just a thought, but since you can load stuff into flash from outside, would it be possible to get flash to load up a 3d model somehow???

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The-Mercenary

Member since: Jan. 22, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-24 23:50:59

:Deltas engine!:

OMG! Thats fucking awsome! Is there any way you can turn the fill into a texture? then you can have some nice looking games. You should definatly consider making a FPS with that engine.

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Arab

Member since: Dec. 4, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 00:59:56

Let's keep this topic alive, just wanted to let you guys know that I'm making some good progress on the scripting for a 3D car simulator.

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dELtaluca

Member since: Apr. 16, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 02:07:38

well until yesterday i didnt even know having txtures would be possible, atleast realistic looking ones but after looking at

http://www.actionscript.cl/

poste by someone else earlier, and looking at the 100% AS skewing and stuff, and the sample 8 especcialy, it can be entirely possible, the only problem seems to be that all the fills would be split up into triangles which would slow down my engine Alot.

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Inglor

Member since: Jan. 26, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 05:20:30

dude, you're all freaks :P

you're making the AS with macromedia flash while you should not use flash but only the .swf file format, that's whay I'm doing and my engine (with bitmap(non-vector which still render pretty slow)) textures is lightening fast!.

macromedia's flash just isn't build for 3d, triangulation is a pretty nifty method, but It just doesn't work the same as doing it yourself... and the fact you're all using commands like 'line to' is even worse, flash's lines are really slow and bothersome, if you link the drawing methods directly the code and write your own 'line to' maybe you won't have to meddle with extremely low speeds, however, my API is just for fun, and is FAR from being complete...

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Remiraz

Member since: Jun. 14, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 06:26:25

At 5/22/05 11:43 AM, t3v11 wrote: Oh, and there are plenty of good, free c++ compilers...
Doesn't anybody ever check sourceforge?
Try Dev-C++, avalible free from
bloodshed - http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html
sourceforge - http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/

Yeah I'm on Bloodshed currently. Bloody good compiler (excuse the pun).

Why should I play Microsoft $80 for something which is free?

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Inglor

Member since: Jan. 26, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 06:52:32

because VCPP is better...

I like devshed, TCPP and code warrior personally,

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The-Mercenary

Member since: Jan. 22, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 12:38:15

At 5/25/05 02:07 AM, dELta_Luca wrote:
http://www.actionscript.cl/

poste by someone else earlier, and looking at the 100% AS skewing and stuff, and the sample 8 especcialy, it can be entirely possible, the only problem seems to be that all the fills would be split up into triangles which would slow down my engine Alot.

that stuff is amazing! Isnt there any way you can just make it fill the square?

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dELtaluca

Member since: Apr. 16, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 13:50:28

yes. i can have it so it just uses it like mask, but it would look very bad as it wouldnt be skewed or rotated or anything

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The-Mercenary

Member since: Jan. 22, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 16:21:40

oh, I see, oh well, maybe flash 8 will have it so where you can have boxes that can be filled with a texture.

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liam

Member since: Dec. 11, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 16:35:07

At 5/23/05 09:47 AM, The_Super_Flash_Bros wrote: my reasons for making the game in Flash are mainly audience based. If made in flash, I can deliver my game to an audience of millions through NG. Then I finally might be recognised as a good ASer (my last game on the portal was Nightmare, and the scripting is laughable)

The AS for Nightmare wasn' excellent, but it wasn't bad... you are a good AS'er and one of the best on NG but you have no games, you just code all the SFB minigames and stuff and they are all really fun, you always make EXCELLENT preloaders too.

Everyone talking about 3D engines... I think I'll try it out :P

Sup, bitches :)

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MouthWindow

Member since: Dec. 4, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 16:47:31

plz do DEADSiM2,
we can call it the MWE!
lmao
im so sad...
Murky Water Engine....
wait!
UPDATE FROM 3 SECONDS AGO!
MW3DE!
We can sell it to peeps...then get a real website....¬¬....mwuhahaha..

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DeepBlue

Member since: Aug. 10, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-05-25 19:45:54

hmm...that reminds me...I made this a year and a half ago

http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~gerhardt/cityrunner.swf

I just stuck that newgrounds preloader in for convienence...keep in mind though that this is just a technical demo and not a game...not only that but the whole engine has completly changed since then. I just figured it may be of some interest.

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fwe

Member since: Jul. 24, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-08-07 17:19:01

Beh, i feel like bumping this to see if delta can post an updated version of his engine, maybe he got hitting done/

wtfbbqhax

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Badflameday

Member since: Apr. 4, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-08-07 18:34:55

One of the problems flash has on a programming level is that it sacrifices processing power so more people can use flash.
In other words, though possible, flash shouldn't be used to make a 3d game similar to quake or unreal because the amount of lag that would be produced would take away from the game experience because the fps would be far under 24 (the human eye can see at 60 fps, though the average person only conciously notices about 24 [subconcious sees at 60]).
Flash can/should be able to handle 3rd person's similar to GTA 1&2 and a very less flashy version of Diablo. In these games, only the background(which should be basic and made up of uncomplex flat surfaces(ie, less flashy)) is 3d while the characters are pictures that change when the background is rotated.
to validate this, I have seen a GTA 1&2 style game (complete with buildings, vehicle and a camera that pulled back at a certain speed) that was made in flash and worked well without lag, however I do not remember the author.
It does require the knowledge of trigonometry though (which is a grade 11 math in Canada), and should be programmed well (less calculations = less strain on the program = faster frame rate).

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dELtaluca

Member since: Apr. 16, 2004

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-08-08 03:27:25

well i did add sphere-sphere collisiosn in but then realised it was just not going to work anymo9re for a full first-person game in such an enviroment with moving cameras adn everything - i managed to get atround it using triggers to remove and add roms in but it still wastn fast enough - however - flash player 8:

flash plyer 7:
lags and goes slowly

flash player 8:
doesnt lag and goes fast (atleast for me) so hopefully once ive finished my current project im gunna start work on it again (with a complete rewrite as i wrote it pretty noobishly the first time)

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Vulpyro

Member since: Dec. 2, 2003

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-08-08 04:06:20

At 5/23/05 12:10 PM, dELta_Luca wrote:

im only 14 so im pretty chuffed with it.

You sir, are a fucking genius. I'm serious about that too.

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automblaze

Member since: Oct. 19, 2005

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-10-26 15:30:28

yeah i just created a super_flash_bros fan club check it out super flash bros rock

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Toast

Member since: Apr. 2, 2005

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Response to 3D Game Engine 2005-10-26 15:33:54

At 5/22/05 11:42 AM, PillowBiter wrote: You lose. You can make true 3D in Flash, as demonstrated here by TrashLock
http://www.locklegio..=3815&highlight=
(btw I think it looked better as a square, but trash just had to keep extending)

If I am right, this is a fake 3D code, probably api.

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