But it ended the war sooner. and think what would have happened if america invaded japan. There would be milions of deaths on both sides.

At 5/9/05 07:26 PM, fenrus1989 wrote: But it ended the war sooner. and think what would have happened if america invaded japan. There would be milions of deaths on both sides.

the bomb could have been droped on iwo jima or some other island with a small concentration of civilians, to set an example, and the war would have ended sparing the civilian lives.

At 5/10/05 03:07 AM, OdINIzM wrote:

At 5/9/05 07:26 PM, fenrus1989 wrote: But it ended the war sooner. and think what would have happened if america invaded japan. There would be milions of deaths on both sides.

the bomb could have been droped on iwo jima or some other island with a small concentration of civilians, to set an example, and the war would have ended sparing the civilian lives.

Good point. I've never actually considered that. That may have not only ended the war and saved America the invasion of the island of Japan, but it would also have saved the poor boys who died taking that volcanic island shithole.

At 5/10/05 07:25 AM, flak_gun wrote: if the germans didnt attack russia and actually signed an alliance treaty wif her, then amybe germany would've won! but hitler got some issues about communist....what a dumb mistake

They did actually sign the Nazi Soviet non aggression pact before the war. But in Hitlers mind the war was always going to be about attacking Russia. That was his main objective.

World domination is alwas a dead end. Whatever allies you have, will either have to become part of your rule or you have to turn around and shoot them. And when the rest of the world is already trying to kill you, it's not a good idea to do that. Initially, I think hitler really messed up and lost alot of support when he satarted slaughtering the jews...nasty shit...and the mother fucker killed himself so he wouldn't have to face the consequences...coward.

At 5/10/05 03:07 AM, OdINIzM wrote: the bomb could have been droped on iwo jima or some other island with a small concentration of civilians, to set an example, and the war would have ended sparing the civilian lives.

Do you know that for a fact? Because I know for a fact that the only reason the Japanese surrendured is because of the Emperor worrying for his people. The military wanted to continue. And the Americans had two chances to play their atomic trump card. And dropping them over populated areas proved a good lesson. End the war or more will come.

You drop it over unpopulated areas, the lesson is lost.

Do you know if this would have happened if the bomb was dropped on a relatively remote island of Iwo Jima? I think it would have been suppressed by the goverment. Its not like they didnt have a history of lying about battles. You cant ignore it on the mainland.

And they declared total war. We fought a total war. And the bombs still hit military targets, dont tell me they didnt.

Also, I feel no sympathy for a country that sneak attacked us and were probably the second biggest Geneva Convention breakers in modern history. Look at Batan Death March and Cabanatuan if you want proof. Thats just the way it goes when you do things like that.

At 5/10/05 03:42 PM, BigTwiggy wrote: and the mother fucker killed himself so he wouldn't have to face the consequences...coward.

If i was in hitlers shoes and i had the choice to shoot myself or face what the soviets were going to do to me (and theres no doubt it wouldve been nasty) then pass me the gun

At 5/11/05 09:38 AM, LedgendaryLukus wrote:

At 5/10/05 03:42 PM, BigTwiggy wrote: and the mother fucker killed himself so he wouldn't have to face the consequences...coward.

If i was in hitlers shoes and i had the choice to shoot myself or face what the soviets were going to do to me (and theres no doubt it wouldve been nasty) then pass me the gun

No doubt. I bet Twiggy wouldn't have gone boldy into the hands the the Russians to what certainly would have been a horrific fate.

At 5/10/05 07:25 AM, flak_gun wrote: if the germans didnt attack russia and actually signed an alliance treaty wif her, then amybe germany would've won! but hitler got some issues about communist....what a dumb mistake

If the Germans hadn't invaded Russia, Russia would have invaded Germany. Just like someone said, Hitler's goal was always Lebensraum in the East, and he decided to get it from a position of strength. The main reasons for the timing of the invasion were his eagerness to get on with the it, and to prevent the Russians from getting any stronger before he did. How ironic that they became even stronger anyway.

Communism universally produced a terrible standard of living for the people. At least Hitler brought Germany out of the depression, while Stalin practically waged war on his own people.

At 5/11/05 12:37 AM, FAB0L0US wrote: Also, I feel no sympathy for a country that sneak attacked us and were probably the second biggest Geneva Convention breakers in modern history.

As much as I don't like your views, I have to agree. After the Japenese atrocities in China, such as the rape of Nanjing, I really think they had it coming to them. I'm still unsure if they apologised for what they did in China, I know Germnay has for what it did in the war.

And yeh I agree that it had to be dropped on the JApanese mainland since the people thought that was untouchable. They were shocked when their cities were bombed beforehand.

Ya know what guys? I finally realized this. I wish Nuclear weapons had never been created. Now because they are, the "Old Ways" of fighting wars are finished. Gone were the days of parachuting into enemy territory, of amphibious landings, of just "Plain" killing. (sigh)
I wish I was born in 1930s, I would have joined the 101st Airborne....

I think you have a rather gung ho attitude to war. Im glad that those battles can be put behind us

i could never fight like that. i would have a problem shooting a person. Thats why i would join the good ol' Royal Navy.

Nah. RAF!

Theyre down there, I am up here. Press the button and its off home for tea

the
Royal Air Force yeah right. Well it matters what time period. Nowadays yeah sure. back in WW2 no way. Do you know the life expectancy of a fighter pilot was back in WW2

oh yeh i forgot it was wwii. but in the modern world its a sinch.

Back then tho,... no im not sure of the life expectancy. I suppose it depends what sort of plane you had

At 5/23/05 07:21 PM, LedgendaryLukus wrote: oh yeh i forgot it was wwii. but in the modern world its a sinch.

Back then tho,... no im not sure of the life expectancy. I suppose it depends what sort of plane you had

well same with the navy. the only countries that really have a navy anymore are the U.S, Russia and us.

It was something like an hour at most after takeoff. I mean imagine if you will flying your aircraft without on board radar, missiles, countermeasures etc. Basically all you have is a relatively flimsy plane, a macine gun and a parachute if your lucky. Get up close, blast the enemy with your guns etc etc. Modern arial warfare is based around Missiles and ECM systems, basically someone fires a missile at you, you deploy countermeasures, attempt to "beam" the missile and if all else fails bail out before the shit hits the proverbial fan.

At 5/23/05 07:40 PM, fenrus1989 wrote:

At 5/23/05 07:21 PM, LedgendaryLukus wrote: oh yeh i forgot it was wwii. but in the modern world its a sinch.

Back then tho,... no im not sure of the life expectancy. I suppose it depends what sort of plane you had

well same with the navy. the only countries that really have a navy anymore are the U.S, Russia and us

LOL, never knew Russia had a navy. Besides, they`re navy sucks. Only Britain & the US rule.

And that my friends, is why I am inventing the TIME MACHINE! bwahahahahahahahaha! I will go back to the 1940 and enlist as paratrooper in the 101st Airborne so that I can be included in the main cast of Band Of Brothers. w00000t!

At 5/24/05 12:15 AM, deathmonger666 wrote: And that my friends, is why I am inventing the TIME MACHINE! bwahahahahahahahaha! I will go back to the 1940 and enlist as paratrooper in the 101st Airborne so that I can be included in the main cast of Band Of Brothers. w00000t!

What happens if your shot in D-Day. See all i have to fear in the Navy is the german wolfpack, German Battle cruisers and any other jappanese boats. Oh yeah and to not be in any american boats, especiall the USS Indianapolis.

At 5/9/05 01:30 AM, FAB0L0US wrote: And if the Germans really cared about war, they should have delayed the invasion of Russia, not made their venure into Yugoslavia (I think it was) for grain and whatever and secured North Africa and not left Rommel out to dry. If they would have got Suez also, that would have helped tons.

Yeah, if they'd taken over U.K. befoer opening a new front against the Sovjet Union they would first got more ships intact for arrival in Africa, they would not have lost air dominance and they would been able to keep down the number of fronts; To later open a stronger front against the Sovjet Union.

At 5/9/05 12:58 PM, OdINIzM wrote: America never droped any fliars or warning papers in Hiroshima and Nagasaki you idiot. That shit is what they teach in American middle schools as part of the propoganda machine.

Well sorry to tell you but they did. And I'm not American or for/against them. I do only tell you some facts. =\

End result? 500 000 civilians dead.

At 3/26/05 06:50 AM, Andersson wrote: In Hiroshima, of a resident civilian population of 250 000 it was estimated that 45 000 died on the first day and a further 19 000 during the subsequent four months. In Nagasaki, out of a population of 174 000, 22 000 died on the first day and another 17 000 within four months.

Ok there has been a couple of posts which I would try to answer here:

Hitler attacked the Sovjet Union because he wanted to be known as the one who crushed the comunist dragon.

No country was intrested of going into the war. The reason to why they did it was because they had no choice (Except Nazi-Germany).

The Sovjet Union produced more tanks than Germany but they were not as good as the Nazi-German tanks. If I remember everything as I should, it went four Sovjet tanks per German tank.
Even though, the Sovjet Union produced so many tanks that that didn't matter and they were superior anyway.

Hitler used the jews as the people who had done everything bad for Germany in the end of WWI; He manipulated the Germans to believe that all those German soldiers who surrendered was jews and that the reason to the depresion as the jews.

The killing of the jews was enforced by other commanders and so on. Hitler didn't need to do much about it as the German people soon spred new lies about the jews without influence of commanders.

He used them as the people to blame for everything bad and the German people bought it and hating jews became as a religion for them though Hitler was as their God.

I don't think the killing of the jews affected wheter other countries turned against Germany or not.

Most surrounding countries knew by their informers but didn't do anything.
The reason to war was that Germany just couldn't be allowed to bring war over country after country.

I think that the annihilation is more of a way of discribing Nazi-Germany and the terror they ran during WWII...

Most countries didn't even know what the hell hitler was doing with the jews. they knew they were being oppressed but they didn't think genocide.

At 5/30/05 04:39 PM, fenrus1989 wrote: Most countries didn't even know what the hell Hitler was doing with the jews. They knew they were being oppressed but they didn't think genocide.

Ok, officially they didn't knew. Inofficially, they knew.

At 5/30/05 04:36 PM, Andersson wrote: Ok there has been a couple of posts which I would try to answer here:

Hitler attacked the Sovjet Union because he wanted to be known as the one who crushed the comunist dragon.

No country was intrested of going into the war. The reason to why they did it was because they had no choice (Except Nazi-Germany).

Not so. Soviet Russia wanted to invade Germany, but an ill-equipped and poorly led army prevened them from doing so. The Soviets also invaded Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and Finland, which is a clear indicator that they wanted war. Japan also wanted war.

Hitler used the jews as the people who had done everything bad for Germany in the end of WWI; He manipulated the Germans to believe that all those German soldiers who surrendered was jews and that the reason to the depresion as the jews.

This is absolutely false. Hitler did not manipulate the Germans into hating Jews. Anti-Semitism was all over the world in those days, especially in Central Europe. Hitler always stated his hatred for the Jews, even when he was an unknown in a Munich beer hall, and he became as powerful as he did partially because the people connected with that. Saying that he manipulated Germans into using Jews as a scapegoat is rubbish.

The killing of the jews was enforced by other commanders and so on. Hitler didn't need to do much about it as the German people soon spred new lies about the jews without influence of commanders.

This was happening long before the Nazi Party even existed. And like you say, afterwards as well. Events light Krystalnacht were instigated by the people. Hitler merely withdrew the police.

He used them as the people to blame for everything bad and the German people bought it and hating jews became as a religion for them though Hitler was as their God.

Once again, the German people "bought" nothing. He fanned the flames of deep-seeded hatred. True about Hitler almost being a god though. In fact, the Hitler Youth read passages from Mein Kampf in place of the Bible.

I don't think the killing of the jews affected wheter other countries turned against Germany or not.

Quite right. As I said, anti-Semitism was world-wide, even in North America. Britain and America both had Nazi Parties before the war, and many other countries had similar ones.

Most surrounding countries knew by their informers but didn't do anything.
The reason to war was that Germany just couldn't be allowed to bring war over country after country.

I think that the annihilation is more of a way of discribing Nazi-Germany and the terror they ran during WWII...

The major Allied powers knew exactly what was going on. Or, at least, what seemed to be going on. Yet even after they knew, they demanded unconditional surrender (which would obviously prolong the war and the suffering of the detainees), they did not bomb Aushwitz, even though the Jews there were praying to be bombed, and etc.

It's funny how the terror of Stalinism, which was far worse than that of Hitler, is forgotten when the blame is shifted.

At 5/24/05 12:13 AM, deathmonger666 wrote: LOL, never knew Russia had a navy. Besides, they`re navy sucks. Only Britain & the US rule.

Ever hear of the Cold War? Yeah, they got a damn good navy, just not as good as 10 years ago. Cause they keep selling it all to China or not making it :/

At 5/30/05 04:36 PM, Andersson wrote: The Sovjet Union produced more tanks than Germany but they were not as good as the Nazi-German tanks. If I remember everything as I should, it went four Sovjet tanks per German tank.

Actually, the T-34 was one of the best tanks in the war. Not until about the Panzer IV J's (I think, whatever, the ones with the longer barrels) were the German tanks comparable. Their Tigers and Panzer V's were better, but also, the T-34/85 was a savage bastard of a tank. Two of those can take a Tiger. The Tigers barrel swivels so damn slow, if you can move around it, hes screwed.

But they did produce more ;)

At 5/30/05 08:17 PM, Jerconjake wrote:

At 5/30/05 04:36 PM, Andersson wrote: No country was intrested of going into the war. The reason to why they did it was because they had no choice (Except Nazi-Germany).

Not so. Soviet Russia wanted to invade Germany, but an ill-equipped and poorly led army prevened them from doing so. The Soviets also invaded Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and Finland, which is a clear indicator that they wanted war. Japan also wanted war.

Oh yes, that's true. But doubtful about Japan wanting war. They knew they couldn't win. They took their chance as the Sovjet Union and Nazi-Germany with Italy went to war.
But they could never win the war alone. Ofcourse they would have spread the circle of eternal welth without war. That was my point. ; )

As it is today, U.S.A. is the only country who could start an independent war with chances of success.

Hitler used the jews as the people who had done everything bad for Germany in the end of WWI; He manipulated the Germans to believe that all those German soldiers who surrendered was jews and that the reason to the depresion as the jews.

This is absolutely false. Hitler did not manipulate the Germans into hating Jews. Anti-Semitism was all over the world in those days, especially in Central Europe.

Ofcourse you're right here, but you're just proving my statement.
The hate directed to the jews were large. I would like to change my words to, that Hitler putted more wood on the fire.
He used the hate directed to the jews as a goal for the Germans and made their hate stronger to unify the German people so they would go to war.

I will probably make that statement more clear later (I got problem with finding the right words and sentences for what I'm trying to say... It happends sometimes).

Saying that he manipulated Germans into using Jews as a scapegoat is rubbish.

He manipulated them. See after WWI there were many military "street fighting"-like firms, there war veterans and Germans willing to revenge had joined.

While those firms weren't big enough or organised enough to start a war against a military power as France, he used them as those who would select him as their leader so they could go to war.

And through using jews as scapegoats, telling that they were the reason to the problems and make people imagine a fake world that would show it to be alot better without the jews, he could get even more support from the store owners and hard workers who thought they didn't get paid for their doings.

Well, people thought they would be united as the poor no longer was at the bottom of the society though the jews would be that.

It's funny how the terror of Stalinism, which was far worse than that of Hitler, is forgotten when the blame is shifted.

Oh, we just haven't got to that part yet.

I would love to see you as my companion as holding this thread together.
I had planned to go through the Sovjet Union after this.

At 5/31/05 06:21 AM, Andersson wrote:

At 5/30/05 08:17 PM, Jerconjake wrote:

At 5/30/05 04:36 PM, Andersson wrote: No country was intrested of going into the war. The reason to why they did it was because they had no choice (Except Nazi-Germany).

Not so. Soviet Russia wanted to invade Germany, but an ill-equipped and poorly led army prevened them from doing so. The Soviets also invaded Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and Finland, which is a clear indicator that they wanted war. Japan also wanted war.

Oh yes, that's true. But doubtful about Japan wanting war. They knew they couldn't win. They took their chance as the Sovjet Union and Nazi-Germany with Italy went to war.
But they could never win the war alone. Ofcourse they would have spread the circle of eternal welth without war. That was my point. ; )

As it is today, U.S.A. is the only country who could start an independent war with chances of success.

I don't know, they attacked Pearl Harbor knowing it would cause a war with America, and they had already begun attacking other places like Manchuria, China and the Central Pacific. Not to mention two short skirmishes against the Russians, of which they lost both.

Hitler used the jews as the people who had done everything bad for Germany in the end of WWI; He manipulated the Germans to believe that all those German soldiers who surrendered was jews and that the reason to the depresion as the jews.

This is absolutely false. Hitler did not manipulate the Germans into hating Jews. Anti-Semitism was all over the world in those days, especially in Central Europe.

Ofcourse you're right here, but you're just proving my statement.
The hate directed to the jews were large. I would like to change my words to, that Hitler putted more wood on the fire.
He used the hate directed to the jews as a goal for the Germans and made their hate stronger to unify the German people so they would go to war.

I will probably make that statement more clear later (I got problem with finding the right words and sentences for what I'm trying to say... It happends sometimes).

Yeah, I thought you were saying that he brainwashed the whole country into hating Jews, like so many people mistakenly believe.

Saying that he manipulated Germans into using Jews as a scapegoat is rubbish.

He manipulated them. See after WWI there were many military "street fighting"-like firms, there war veterans and Germans willing to revenge had joined.

While those firms weren't big enough or organised enough to start a war against a military power as France, he used them as those who would select him as their leader so they could go to war.

You mean like the SA? They existed before Hitler came around, and they already had their ideals set. They fought over politics more than anything. The German people already believed that they were betrayed by the government in the Great War, but you're right in saying that Hitler played a large role in convincing them that it was the Jews who were the traitors.

And through using jews as scapegoats, telling that they were the reason to the problems and make people imagine a fake world that would show it to be alot better without the jews, he could get even more support from the store owners and hard workers who thought they didn't get paid for their doings.

Well, people thought they would be united as the poor no longer was at the bottom of the society though the jews would be that.

Especially considering that many of the wealthy were Jews, while most Germans were barely able to survive.

It's funny how the terror of Stalinism, which was far worse than that of Hitler, is forgotten when the blame is shifted.

Oh, we just haven't got to that part yet.

I would love to see you as my companion as holding this thread together.
I had planned to go through the Sovjet Union after this.

It would be a pleasure! I'm sure it will be a most fruitful undertaking.
It's strange to me how everyone fixates on Hitler being the most evil person who ever lived, but I believe that Stalin was. Hitler took a country that was in shambles and made it something great, while Stalin took a country that was in shambles and made it considerably worse. There's so many awful things to tell, but I'll let you begin.